Fattyowls Posted 22 May , 2016 Share Posted 22 May , 2016 Well I fear you may not find the programme of much direct use because one of the surprising omissions was that it did not mention Invincible at all David It was actually your summary of Beatty's "clarification" of his role that I was interested in; shades of the accusations against Haig in similar circumstances. Interesting. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ridgus Posted 22 May , 2016 Share Posted 22 May , 2016 Hi David After combing through the military, and turning to political, my picture database got me to the letter E, and I have him as Matthias Erzberger, a signatory of the Armistice and holder of various post in both pre and post war Germany. John Just done a quick review of Jutland recording and your correct no mention of the Invincible! Erzberger it is, one of the so called 'November criminals'. He was murdered after the war, the 'justification' being his involvement in the 'stab in the back'. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ridgus Posted 22 May , 2016 Share Posted 22 May , 2016 It was actually your summary of Beatty's "clarification" of his role that I was interested in; shades of the accusations against Haig in similar circumstances. Interesting. Pete. Pete If you want absolute chapter and verse on the Beatty/Jellicoe imbroglio then Andrew Gordon's 'The Rules of the Game' is a top choice. It's a huge book but chapters 24 and 25 'Dirty work somewhere' and 'Perspective', really cover the ground well (even though he's a bit generous to Beatty for a Jellicoe-ite like me!). David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ridgus Posted 22 May , 2016 Share Posted 22 May , 2016 As Jutland is looming large at the moment how about another group photo for identification. We had this a couple of years ago but from memory we did not complete the identification of all 22 Great War naval commanders. So can we do better now? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knotty Posted 22 May , 2016 Share Posted 22 May , 2016 Hi David I have a problem with this, in my picky database I have this portrait plus I have the NPG list of the sitters, I don't want to cheat so do you want me to email you the list so you can tick off those named by others who enjoy the WIT thread. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ridgus Posted 22 May , 2016 Share Posted 22 May , 2016 John Thank you. I only recognise half a dozen myself so would have been relying on others anyway. Your idea therefore makes sense. However it might take a while as the thread is going through one of its periodic longueurs! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knotty Posted 24 May , 2016 Share Posted 24 May , 2016 Just to bump this up the list and I know I said I wouldn't answer any of it, the easy one standing, at foreground centre is Beatty John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 24 May , 2016 Share Posted 24 May , 2016 Is the man seated third from the right, directly under the circular map, Prince Louis of Battenberg? Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ridgus Posted 24 May , 2016 Share Posted 24 May , 2016 It is indeed Ron (belated birthday good wishes by the way) And just to name a few more - the three standing in the background fifth sixth and seventh from the left, are the three Admirals killed in the war: Arbuthnot and Hood at Jutland and Christopher Craddock at Coronel David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 25 May , 2016 Share Posted 25 May , 2016 One of them must be Jellicoe, surely, and the most likely one seems to be the one seated far right. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ridgus Posted 25 May , 2016 Share Posted 25 May , 2016 Right again Ron. And it's Wemyss standing to the right of him David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knotty Posted 26 May , 2016 Share Posted 26 May , 2016 Not a lot of take up on the Naval portrait gallery, so while people are cogitating, from an army perspective WIT, and what is his legacy? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolt968 Posted 26 May , 2016 Share Posted 26 May , 2016 I won't cheat and check. Isn't the man without the beard seated at the table below the circular map Sturdee? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolt968 Posted 26 May , 2016 Share Posted 26 May , 2016 Is that Keyes standing second from the left? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 26 May , 2016 Share Posted 26 May , 2016 Sturdee and Keyes should certainly be there, and I would expect to see Henry Oliver and Hedworth Meux in there somewhere, as well as possibly George Callaghan, but I can't place them. Not so sure whether E C T Troubridge would be in the mix! Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolt968 Posted 26 May , 2016 Share Posted 26 May , 2016 I wondered about Tyrwhitt. Or was he too junior? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ridgus Posted 26 May , 2016 Share Posted 26 May , 2016 I wondered about Tyrwhitt. Or was he too junior? You are right. He is the left one of the two standing at the front facing Beatty I won't cheat and check. Isn't the man without the beard seated at the table below the circular map Sturdee? Right again. Well done David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ridgus Posted 26 May , 2016 Share Posted 26 May , 2016 Is that Keyes standing second from the left? Keyes is standing between Tyrwhitt and Beatty. An excellent three from three David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ridgus Posted 26 May , 2016 Share Posted 26 May , 2016 Sturdee and Keyes should certainly be there, and I would expect to see Henry Oliver and Hedworth Meux in there somewhere, as well as possibly George Callaghan, but I can't place them. Not so sure whether E C T Troubridge would be in the mix! Ron I'm sorry Ron but none of these four are in the painting. I find the absence of Oliver to be completely inexplicable, and Meux too seems unlucky not to make the cut! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolt968 Posted 26 May , 2016 Share Posted 26 May , 2016 Keyes is standing between Tyrwhitt and Beatty. An excellent three from three David Except I got the wrong man as Keyes! The picture of Sturdee in that pose has been reproduced a number of times. I wonder if the reproductions come from that painting or if there is a "single" version somewhere as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ridgus Posted 26 May , 2016 Share Posted 26 May , 2016 Except I got the wrong man as Keyes! The picture of Sturdee in that pose has been reproduced a number of times. I wonder if the reproductions come from that painting or if there is a "single" version somewhere as well. There are studies of the Sturdee and the Beatty portraits that exist as separate pictures. Presumably he did similar studies for all of them but only these two seem to still be around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 26 May , 2016 Share Posted 26 May , 2016 While you are contemplating, here's a bust that arrived today. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolt968 Posted 26 May , 2016 Share Posted 26 May , 2016 Is de Robeck there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ridgus Posted 26 May , 2016 Share Posted 26 May , 2016 Is de Robeck there? Indeed he is. The second seated officer from the left Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolt968 Posted 26 May , 2016 Share Posted 26 May , 2016 I have a feeling that Fisher should be there. Dead centre, sitting at the back immediately left of Beattie? If it is, it's a very passive looking Fisher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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