Blood and Thunder, The boys of Eton College

[stiletto_33853]

In Today's Daily Telegraph Review, on page R27, Alexandra Churchill's book on the boys of Eton College and the First World War comes out as the weeks choice book. Great release date!!

Get my copy tomorrow from her and am really looking forward to this.

"This weeks choice is Blood and Thunder, a fascinating account of the contribution of the boys of Eton College to the First World War. In 1914, when the war broke out, schoolboys across Britain signed up to fight. Later many more were compelled to enlist. Among them were old boys from Britain's most famous public school, Eton.

Thousands of these young men flocked to the front, with many of them stepping out of the classroom, into the army and onto the battlefields before they had left their teenage years behind. More than 1,200 of them would not return."

The Telegraph blurb with a small interview with Alex.

Andy

[chrissparrow]

Excellent! I gave her a copy of my book 'No Time to Spare?' which details many of her subjects some time ago. I trust I will get a reciprocal copy! But, Alexandra I know it doesn't work like that - I will get a copy in the morning. Should be an outstanding read from one of the most brilliant young historians around.

Chris

[Steven Broomfield]

Saw the puff in the Tottygraph and thought it looked interesting. Maybe someone could review it when they have it and let us know what you think.

[Guest]

In Today's Daily Telegraph Review, on page R27, Alexandra Churchill's book on the boys of Eton College and the First World War comes out as the weeks choice book. Great release date!!

Get my copy tomorrow from her and am really looking forward to this.

"This weeks choice is Blood and Thunder, a fascinating account of the contribution of the boys of Eton College to the First World War. In 1914, when the war broke out, schoolboys across Britain signed up to fight. Later many more were compelled to enlist. Among them were old boys from Britain's most famous public school, Eton.

Thousands of these young men flocked to the front, with many of them stepping out of the classroom, into the army and onto the battlefields before they had left their teenage years behind. More than 1,200 of them would not return."

The Telegraph blurb with a small interview with Alex.

Andy

Andy - thanks for flagging this. Just ordered it. MG

[stiletto_33853]

Chris, if you have not got your copy as yet Alex has arranged for a copy to be sent to you.

Andy

[Jonathan Saunders]

Ordered. Congratulations Alex.

[Guest]

The Old Etonian network was pushing this some days ago. I suspect there will be a lot of interest. MG

[stiletto_33853]

Martin,

The old Etonians got an e-mail last Friday re the release, as you have rightly guessed there has been a lot of interest. The publishers have ordered the 2nd Print as they are now out of stock apparently.

Andy

[Guest]

Martin,

The old Etonians got an e-mail last Friday re the release, as you have rightly guessed there has been a lot of interest. The publishers have ordered the 2nd Print as they are now out of stock apparently.

Andy

Were you involved in the production? If so, hats off to you.

I have the very beautifully produced Etonians who Fought in the Great War. Printed on very thick paper and one of those reminders that modern reprints can't beat the original. Mine even has the supplementary list and the original Eton War List corrections slip. I wonder how many copies were sold on its original run.

I have had a number of emails from Etonians flagging this new book. Strong interest as you say. Given their strong family links to the College over many generations I would imagine there are tens of thousands of people descended from the Etonians that served in the Great War who will be interested.

As you doubtless know there are some rather interesting books relating to public schools and the War. Slightly related is Gliddon's book on the Aristocracy and the Great War which is in desperate need of a reprint with a decent index. One has to have a forensic knowledge of Debretts and family seats to stand half a chance of finding information.

MG

[paulgranger]

Not being an old Etonian, this is a long way down my wants list, but I've followed Ms Churchill on Twitter while she has been writing it, and congratulations to her on it's publication. Hope all OEs in the Cabinet have ordered their copies!

[David Filsell]

I regret that this will sound warrior's rant but I wonder if anyone will ever write a book about GPO or fishmongers or these from my old school Queens Road Secondary Modern who gave their lives for their country. Apart from fine and expensive education, selective breeding and great good fortune, and of course the schools' own wish to memorialise, what truly makes the service and sad death of such great interest or import to so many?

[chrissparrow]

Andy,

I ordered my copy yesterday, but would treasure a signed copy from Alex! Alex - well done and about time too!

David - we look forward to your book on Queens Road Secondary Modern. For whatever reasons the privileged went to Eton and anyone's views on the system the fact remains that they have an outstanding military history and OEs played a significant part in the war.

Chris

[kenf48]

For whatever reasons the privileged went to Eton and anyone's views on the system the fact remains that they have an outstanding military history and OEs played a significant part in the war.

Chris

They certainly did, who could forget such brilliant alumni as Sir Philip (later Lord) Chetwode who, on the 10th September 1914 led the 5th Cavalry Brigade in the execution of the classic military manoeuvre of an ever decreasing circle to join up with the left flank of his own support line.

Ken

[David Filsell]

Te he scales favour the fishmongers first I think.

[chrissparrow]

They certainly did, who could forget such brilliant alumni as Sir Philip (later Lord) Chetwode who, on the 10th September 1914 led the 5th Cavalry Brigade in the execution of the classic military manoeuvre of an ever decreasing circle to join up with the left flank of his own support line.

Ken

As I say they played a significant part in the war! Yes - we all make mistakes. Idiots came from everywhere but the fact remains Etonians and the war are intrinsically linked. (No I am not one of them before anyone asks). 13 VCs in the Great War and 37 in total for example.

I think it will be a very interesting need - written obviously by an historian who is definitely not an OE!

Chris

[stiletto_33853]

David,

I thought that was you snooping around the fishing boats locally as they brought their catch back to town thought you looked a bit fishy!!!

Me thinks you have jumped the gun a little old sport, this is not the book you seem to have written off without bothering to even open the front cover of. Alex's introduction adequately explains what she has tried to do here, I do not think that you will find it as you seem to be expecting, let's open with some of the beginning of the Introduction :-

"Why do the pupils of Eton College who served in the Great War matter more than anybody else? The answer is they don't. But describing the war through the eyes of her old boys enables a unique, personal retelling of a conflict approaching it centenary"

"This was my choice and for the purpose of this volume it just so happens that the soldiers, sailors, airmen, prisoners, politicians and civilians all happened to have one thing in common."

Oh!!!! and by the way, as for the comment regarding the schools own wish to memorialise, this book was commissioned independently.

Andy

The project she is working on presently might be more of your cup of tea, there might even be one of your schools old pupils in it

[David Filsell]

I do not criticise this book although I have made criticisms in review of another recent book which deploys almost league table presentation of losses , school by school, in another recent work on the topic. But I do dispute the apparent elevation of the public schoolboy above all those others who served in recent books. Equally I fully understand the wish of the schools to memorialise former students. And of course every soldier's account of his war is unique by definition. The public school ethos may have been different to that of others, however if the publisher or author would care to send me a review copy I will, as ever, read it with an open mind.

[chrissparrow]

Points taken David. No one body of men be they Old Boys from a particular public school or factory workers who formed a Pals Battalion can claim greatest honour of deeds and each has their own story, as you say. The book is just another part of the rich tapestry and I look forward to reading it.

Chris

[Guest]

I do not criticise this book although I have made criticisms in review of another recent book which deploys almost league table presentation of losses , school by school, in another recent work on the topic. But I do dispute the apparent elevation of the public schoolboy above all those others who served in recent books. Equally I fully understand the wish of the schools to memorialise former students. And of course every soldier's account of his war is unique by definition. The public school ethos may have been different to that of others, however if the publisher or author would care to send me a review copy I will, as ever, read it with an open mind.

David...it is a remote possibility that the 'league table' approach is a reaction to the 'Oh what a lovely lions led by Blackadder' school of nonsense that promotes the idea of drinks cabinets being shifted closer to Berlin by incompetent (public school educated) Officers. The idea that the 'Officer class' (read public school educated men) shirked their responsibilities still pervades in some minds.

Eton has been part of the British establishment for nearly 600 years, longer than most institutions. Most countries can't claim that. It is an Institution with a big 'I'. Like it or not, it is an institution that has a disproportionate influence on British Society. It has shaped our society for hundreds of years and continues to do so. Look at the Cabinet (the Govt not the drinks cabinet). During the Great War when push came to shove, they did not shirk their assumed responsibilities. Contrast this with the sons of America's elite in more recent conscript wars. Rather the opposite; they volunteered, fought and died in greater proportions than any other sub-group I can think of. They died in greater proportions than the common man which at the very least means they did not expect the working man to do things they were not prepared to do themselves. Arguably they did it with greater zeal. Their motives and sacrifice are no greater or more worthy than that of the Glasgow Tramway men or London Bankers of Hull Commercials. The simple fact is the institution they represent lasted longer, had a much larger alumni and (sadly) in this age of celebrity is of interest to many.

The groaning shelves of my library are full of books on Pals battalions rubbing shoulders with those on public schools. Almost every Regimental or Battalion history I own (over 300 books at least) tend to promote the idea that death and sacrifice and commitment were correlated and causal. Some (most?) historians of the age seem to think that high casualties were a badge of pride. Etonians and Public School boys in general are different to the Tyneside Scots, or Liverpool Irish or London Welsh or Hull Commercials in one important way: they volunteered and died in significantly greater proportions and this is undeniably interesting.It raises the question: Why? Why did the privileged classes face death so stoically? It is interesting, especially given their alleged greater education. Of all classes who might question the futility of war, one might reasonably expect the so-called 'educated privileged classes' to question the motives more readily than the less educated masses, but the opposite happened. They championed the cause even when their fatal casualty rates were double that of the common soldier. To me that is a fascinating social enigma that is worth exploring.. They appear to have done the opposite to what some detractors would have us believe and that in itself is a point of curiosity and interest. None of these groups have any greater claim for greatness, but one has about 500 years more history and had a much larger impact on Britain. I have no doubt that fishmongers of Hull sacrificed themselves in similar proportions, but it is a sad fact that they do not have a 600 year-old institution to promote their commitment and sacrifice.

MG

[kenf48]

Though the thread is moving from the book review which not having read I can make no comment on it seems the topic is promoting discussion which must be gratifying for the author.

It could be argued the 'Oh what a lovely lions led by Blackadder' school of nonsense came about because the public schoolboys that survived did eventually wake up and recognise the futility and sacrifice of the war. Alan Clark was after all an Old Etonian, although arguably Marlborough and Charterhous produced the best poets and chroniclers.

Eton may be an institution and a cornerstone of the establishment but any society where the leaders come from that privileged institution has some serious questions to answer about the sacrifice and suffering their leadership brought down on the fishermen from Hull and millions of others including their own

Ken

[Guest]

Has anyone read the book yet? Spamazon tell me mine is on its way. MG

[chrissparrow]

Ordered from The History Press on Monday and have heard nothing about shipping yet.

Chris

[David Filsell]

MartG

As ever you scrupulously make too many points of difference between us to debate here I think, many of which I agree with but disagreeing not least with:

"Eton has been part of the British establishment for nearly 600 years, longer than most institutions. Most countries can't claim that. It is an Institution with a big 'I'. Like it or not, it is an institution that has a disproportionate influence on British Society. It has shaped our society for hundreds of years and continues to do so. Look at the Cabinet (the Govt not the drinks cabinet)."

I believe you to be right in fact and but the reality of such closely linked place taking is not to my taste. I have met and worked with many public schoolers, liked as many and regarded them well and disliked others in about the same proportion as the great unpriveledged.

However, I once had the misfortune to meet regularly with a particularly ex RAF, ex public school senior RAC executive on business. 'Up his' only starts to describe him. He took agin me and me agin him. On one occasion he spotted my tie, strode over and asked "which House Filsell".My ignorance was obvious and he asked me why I was wearing an Eton tie to which I was unentitled. "You fool no one" he said. I advised him that I was wearing it because I bought it at Next and rather liked the colours.. He 'cut'me for ever after.Perhaps my reaction is rather like that of being frightened by a horse as a child when forced to ride something dangerous on all four corners and at both ends.

Not only that but if you have the great good fortune to take lunch with these guilded individuals why do they always choose jam roly-poly, spotted dick or some other nursery pudding. Now that real offends me!!!

That said if offered the chance I will review the book dispassionately and, as ever with an eye for its merits and demerits.

Equally as has been pointed all discussion and criticism is a marketing boon, but I suspect the mere subject of the boo will be of limited value or interest to a small but well endowed group of old boys. "Or perhaps not", he said touching his forelock.

Regardezes (we didn't do much French at Secondary Modern

David )

[Guest]

Possibly of related interest -

Peter Parker's "The Old Lie: The Great War and the Public School Ethos"

Christopher Moore-Bick's "Playing the Game: The British Junior Officer on the Western Front 1914-18"

Both are both interesting reads and will doubtless overlap with parts of this new book. Both are very well researched. I found Parker's book simply fascinating. The last line of his book: "That men died for an ethos does not mean that the ethos was worth dying for". The title and the last line give some indication of Parker's stance, yet he managed to analyse his subject impartially.

[David Filsell]

I have the Old Lie and Parker certainly informed my views and reinforced my opinions that public school officers were probably no better or worse than those from any other section of society. There was some anger about the book when first published by some who judged it, in parts at least, an attack on the of brilliant ethos imbued in those at public schools.

Strange to relate but even us Common Entrance failures were taught to 'play up and play the game', be proud of our house (Fleming in my case), be honest and loyal to friends, family, King and country. Unlike a former New Labour minister I have no problem with selection or feel I had a second rate education or lacked the essential Inspirational teacher. I also had theopportunity to get a hatful of decent GCE results

Sheriff, although a grammar school boy who was bitter because he was declined a commission because he had attended 'only' Kingston Grammar School. Her famously joined the Artists Rifles, gained a commission a later served with the East Surrey Regt. But latter recanted his anger about what had happened and considered the decision had been correct.

However, I remain totally unconvinced that he was right in his changed view or that the chappies from public school made any greater contribution - on balance - than my old friends of their Fishmongers Pals. But enough already. What about a decent review from someone on the Forum forum with no axe to grind I am offering personal opinion of what I consider a myth and not a judgement on the quality of the book, So review please. (No public school boys may apply - if I knew how to add smiling face I would do so here.)