Blood and Thunder, The boys of Eton College

[stiletto_33853]

David,

Eton is and has its own community just as the Pals do or the Guards. I find it a little unfair to say that the book will be of limited value or of interest to a small but well endowed group of old boys!!!

There is some marvelous prime material in the book, lent generously by families, do they not deserve to be written about?? and a good deal covers the men that served as well as Etonians.

For example at Villers Cotterets Lord Killanin (one of your privileged ones) wanted to find the body of Colonel Morris (a non Etonian) of the Irish Guards. Locals had begun to dig up the bodies from a mass grave, Lord Killanin took over the dig, all but one man belonged to the 4th Guards Brigade. Pocket books were removed with identity discs and the names of as many as possible recorded. As a result of his determination, almost one hundred men; seventy-eight identified received a fitting burial and commemoration at Guards Grave. The men were cared for by the local population until the advent of the Imperial War Graves Commission.

"Irreparable as is the loss suffered by the loss of those officers and soldiers and awful as the work of exhumation was, it is to me an abiding consolation to know that their remains were rescued from an utterly unknown grave and have been laid to rest with respect and reverence and affection and honour" remarked Lord Killanin.

There is also quite a lot regarding other ranks, servants etc, not just "spotted dick" eating Etonians, hence maybe it would be an idea to contact The History Press, present your credentials and ask to review the book!!! The descendants of all those Yeomanry who died on St. George's Day 1916 at Qatiya is another example, as I have not seen this covered in any great human detail.

From my own perspective and my interests, some of the men I have a high regard for just happen to be Etonians. Men such as MacLachlan, Sheepshanks, Southwell, Prior and Backus. Eton and their families have been nothing but courteous, extremely helpful and interested. These men are treated the same as some of the other ranks that I have a high regard for, it's just that the named men here happen to be Etonians.

I am not the man to write a review on Alex's work having been involved with it, but anyone reading the book will find it of great interest not just to a "small well endowed group of old boys". I have found it absorbing in many respects hence please contact The History Press.

Andy

[Guest]

Sheriff, although a grammar school boy who was bitter because he was declined a commission because he had attended 'only' Kingston Grammar School. Her famously joined the Artists Rifles, gained a commission a later served with the East Surrey Regt. But latter recanted his anger about what had happened and considered the decision had been correct.

Sherriff wrote a nice essay titled 'The English Public Schools in the War' in 'Promise of Greatness: The 1914-18 War A Memorial Volume for the Fiftieth Anniversary of the Armistice" published in 1968. He was one of 42 contributors. It starts:

"When my War Play Journey's End was first performed, some people said there was too much of the English public schools about it. Some thought it glorified them without good reason: others that it discredited them unfairly. It depended on the way they thought about these schools. For my own part I had no axe to grind one way or another. I didn't go to a public school myself. I was at my small hometown grammar school and in those days the gulf between a local school and a public school was so wide that the boys lived practically in different worlds. I hardly ever met a public school boy until I joined the Army: As a junior officer I lived among them. Almost every young officer was a public school boy, and if I had cut them out of Journey's End there wouldn't have been a play at all."

Later, he writes;

"By the same token a common soldier would obey the sergeants and the sergeants major who had risen from the ranks but when it came to his officer, commissioned by the King he expected something more. What it was he could never have defined in words. But if the Officer had it, then the soldier instinctively recognized it and that indefinable something was what was instilled into a boy at the public school.

It had nothing to do with wealth or privilege. Very few of the public school boys came from the landed gentry or distinguished families. For the most part they came from modest homes, the sons of local lawyers, doctors or schoolmasters - hardworking professional men. Some were the sons of country clergymen who lived on the verge of poverty and sold their precious family heirlooms for the money to send their boy to a public school"

His last line:

"The common soldier liked them because they were 'young swells' and with few exceptions the young swells delivered the goods.

It is a very interesting essay written by a man who had a ringside seat. MG

[David Filsell]

Mart H

I know the piece well, earlier in it he expresses his initial disappointment at being turned down for a commission because KGS was not on the list of public schools and he had not been in the Corps. Strangely at a post war reunion dinner he also stated that he knew that he had not been a very good officer. He was a much more modest, talented and complex character and writer of JH than is generally appreciated

Stilleto

You make very good and very fair points with which I accept. Currently, having completed four reviews for Stand To!, one of which I have put on the Forum with its usual daft careless mistakes, I have left a pile of just five books to read and write up. Frankly rather than seek more at the moment I am dying to find time to read some decent crime fiction. As for a review of the book - if it comes I will build it a review. I only rarely ask publishers direct for copies.

equally I am well aware that my views are considered incorrect and am grateful for the correctives which have been applied - so much nicer than a beating from a sixth former in a stiff collar as well as other stiff public schoolboy things. This I my small attempt at humour in adversity against heavyweight (but all mine own).

[Guest]

My copy arrived this afternoon. Rather thin paper (presumably to keep costs down) but the content looks very promising.....

MG

[David Filsell]

Martin,

I am hugely surprised and disappointed that such a prestigious book should be printed on thin paper. The whole nation is going to the dogs he said, smilingly and compassionately.

[David Filsell]

I am genuinely sad to read this. Proof reading, and I am a very poor proof reader, is now standard in publishing. Incidentally who is the publisher?

[Guest]

The Torygraph has Blood and Thunder as its Book of the Day. Also it is offering it for £15 rather than the RRP of £20. click here

[chrissparrow]

Martin,

Read on and forget both the typos and basic military errors. This is a book about a group of men who contributed greatly to our success in war, not a military commentary on the war. Look for the real message!

Just finished and greatly enjoyed for a number of reasons. More to follow......!

Chris

[Guest]

Martin,

Read on and forget both the typos and basic military errors. This is a book about a group of men who contributed greatly to our success in war, not a military commentary on the war. Look for the real message!

Just finished and greatly enjoyed for a number of reasons. More to follow......!

Chris

I simply can't. MG

[chrissparrow]

I simply can't. MG

Martin,

Bet you will read on! If not give your copy to David to review as he won't approach the publisher or buy his own.

Chris

[David Filsell]

"Forget the typos and basic military error"

C'mon get real. What degree of basic military error is ever acceptable?

But as I have said if I am sent a copy I will review it dispassionately

[Jonathan Saunders]

... forget both the typos and basic military errors. This is a book about a group of men who contributed greatly to our success in war, not a military commentary on the war. Look for the real message!

Quite!

I expect technical military history will not be Alex's strength but she is an exceptionally dogged researcher of the individual story. My copy has not yet arrived so it is difficult to comment but I expect the message to be the individual story and from that point of view to be an interesting read of numerous characters whose common denominator was Eton.

Regards,

Jonathan S

[David Filsell]

Sorry Jonathan if writing technical military history is not the author's strength why is she attempting it? The real message here seems to be that the book contains inaccuracies and that some readers have noted them and object.

[Jonathan Saunders]

Sorry Jonathan if writing technical military history is not the author's strength why is she attempting it? The real message here seems to be that the book contains inaccuracies and that some readers have noted them and object.

I'll tell you after the book arrives but I suspect the author's motivation was to tell the story of the individual, or in this case, several of them - unfortunately you can't ignore the war bit.

Regards,

Jonathan S

[chrissparrow]

Dear All,

I have now read the book carefully and have digested my thoughts. This may not be to everyone's liking but it is an honest consideration.

This is the most significant contribution to the history of the war in recent times. Alexandra Churchill has uncovered significant new material from extensive research after being given access to material few have ever seen. She chronicles the life of many Etonians who gave their lives, but in a clever way in which the stories dip in and out. You wonder if some are finished or not until they emerge again in later chapters. A chronological study mainly she tells the story of the war through the lives and deaths of OEs.

She makes little comment on their actions and allows their words and deeds to speak alone. Some loved the war but many hated it. Nevertheless they got up again and again and did the job required. The book deals with all from privates to generals and OEs who served for all services and for many different nations including the Russians and Germans!

What makes this book special is the way that it does not praise Etonians - it simply chronicles the part they played in the war. And yet it is obvious that their part was significant. Some of them who were high rankers were not given much credit but it was a difficult task for them and often they had to order the troops over the top again and again. The vast majority of OEs to die we're Junior officers. They did not question orders and met with great success and death in equal measure.

The brilliance of this book, however, is the way that it tells how we won the war. Every act that the allies took played a part. For me it showed that every tiny act was a grain of sand in forming a beach against the tide of the German army. If soldiers had not added each act of heroism the Germans would have gained an advantage. Each life lost had the tiniest contribution to the war but unless this combined effort had been sustained the war would have been lost.

What Alexandra leaves out is almost as significant as what she puts in. I look forward to the next episode......!

The institutions they attended cannot be forgotten. Here are words from two of them who went Summer Fields, Eton, Balliol.

Rhys-Davids to his mother 1916 - "it's a job. We ought to try to do it well."

Macmillan to Summer Fields 1964 - "we did somehow get it into our heads that if a thing was worth doing at all it was worth doing as well as possible."

Chris

[Michelle Young]

My copy arrived today; I have to finish a weighty tome first before I read it. I have been very restrained and put it straight into the book case. Will probably take it to read when I go to Loos next month

Michelle

[David Filsell]

" This is the most significant contribution to the history of the war in recent times."

As the man said "You cannot be serious!"

I truly hope this was meant as an ironic statement rather than that you have made a diversion into hyperbole.

[chrissparrow]

David - have you read it yet?

[David Filsell]

No. I have not. It s not about the merits of thisIn this case book but your hyperbole. It's a bold bold man who would make a claim like yours about any book on the Great War let alone one merely on a school on and it's pupils in the war. I am not even truly sure if you were simply having fun. It may be important in its own specialist field but regardless of how you judge quality of the book this is side show stuff in comparison with many books published "in recent times". Your view is simply unsupportable to any one with a realistic view of important books on the Great War and there are many debates which can be held about them. I stand by my judgement of your overinflated words regardless.

[chrissparrow]

Of course you are entitled to stand by your judgement. Just as you can stand by your judgement of a book that you have not read. And I stand by my judgement of a book that I have read! At least mine is informed. Whose views are unsupportable?

[kenf48]

This is the most significant contribution to the history of the war in recent times.

From the outset this thread appears to have been a marketing tool. I was also curious how you can possibly justify the statement above.

Accepting the author, as discussed in her introduction, chose to approach the war through the experience of Old Etonians it's hardly an innovative idea. There have been similar accounts of the war through the experience of cricketers, rugby players, poets, painters and just about every Pal’s Battalion (including the Public Schools Battalion) as well as many other public schools. Although each has it’s limitations it's an established Great War genre that is now commonplace but hardly significant, such accounts necessarily provide a narrow view of the conflict and I fail to see how the experience of yet more junior officers, who had a very limited horizon can justify such a claim.

The 'look inside' on Amazon was enough to take it off my reading list, especially with so many other titles vying for attention in 2014.

The role of public schools in providing junior officers is well documented and there are some books on the topic that demand to be read. I can’t see this will ever be one of them.

In the few pages I read I soon tired of the repetition of ‘Another Old Etonian...' The book is about Old Etonians does this need to be hammered on every page, and who is the author referring to, a name that pops up later or some other Old Etonian, or is this the 'clever dipping in and out'? The style and proof errors are so irritating it does get in the way of the narrative, for example 'Battle commenced, and by mid afternoon on the 23rd August.’[sic], is that even a sentence? It appears the 1,160 OE's didn't die like everyone else (other than fellow public schoolboys) but 'fall' or are 'struck down'. Their soldiers are 'made to tramp 'rather than march, ships are 'full to the seams' which I suppose avoids the cliche but it's a new one on me. This overblown style really grates after just a few pages.

The book would probably have benefited from a good editor as well as a proof reader.

As it is it just seems it was rushed out to catch the Centenary bandwagon, or to paraphrase Richard Aldington’ ‘large scale account of Old Etonians may go down big now’ so rush to get it out before interest in the war wanes.

Ken

[chrissparrow]

Thanks Ken,

At least you have read some of it unlike others who feel they can comment. It is unlike many of the other 'genre' books that you mention because of the connectivity of Old Etonians. It is impossible to understand this (or to comment in an informed way) without reading the whole book. I look forward to a post from someone who has.

Chris

[Moonraker]

I am genuinely sad to read this. Proof reading, and I am a very poor proof reader, is now standard in publishing. Incidentally who is the publisher?

As you've probably discovered by now, David, it's the History Press, which has a good reputation. But having dipped in to the book courtesy of the Amazon site, I have to agree with the comments about the apparent absence of copy-editing and proof-reading. I hesitate to say much about the content, but from what I've seen of it the book is interesting with some good anecdotes but not an essential addition to one's bookshelf.

Moonraker

[David Filsell]

Chris

You have missed my point. As I have said, I'm am judging a judgement which you made about a book and it's contribution to the history of the war. In the scheme of things how important can a book about such a subject so small be seriously considered the most significant work of history for sometime. I really feel that I must ask, are your comments actually part of the book's marketing operation? I think we should be told if so.

David

[chrissparrow]

David,

Read the book. No I am not involved in promoting it. The things I say are honest.

Chris