ForeignGong Posted 19 October , 2014 Share Posted 19 October , 2014 Hi All This bullet came to me many years ago amongst other WW1 bits & pieces. Just interested to know if it is WW1 and if so, what nationality. Appreciate any assistance you can give Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 19 October , 2014 Share Posted 19 October , 2014 It is British made (kynoch) if WW1 it may be Belgian as they used 7.65mm but it may also be from an Argentinian contract as they too used 7.65mm Mausers, as did Turkey. I am well out of my field but I thought the Argentinian rounds had a pointed (spitzer) Bullet. I'll have a look but my guess would be made for Belgium. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerhunter Posted 19 October , 2014 Share Posted 19 October , 2014 A couple of points what you have is more that a bullet, the bullet is the projectile. What you have a is a cartridge: case, primer, propellent and bullet. Next it looks live. It is an offence in the UK to be in possession of any live ammunition without lawful authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 19 October , 2014 Share Posted 19 October , 2014 If the IWM is correct Kynoch received a contract to produce ammunition for the Belgian army after the Belgian factory making it fell into German hands According to Cartridges of the World (and similar sources) the Mauser rounds used by Belgium differed from those used by Argentina, Turkey et al by having a rounded nose and being slightly lighter so I'd guess the same as Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 19 October , 2014 Share Posted 19 October , 2014 The full name 'Kynoch' on the headstamp would suggest to me that the round was originally made as commercial ammunition, in which case it could be any date up to about the 1960s. The very slight flare at the casemouth makes me wonder if the bullet's been pulled - so it's possible it's inert; or even a many-times-used reload, from the bruised condition of the casehead. Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 19 October , 2014 Share Posted 19 October , 2014 From the IWM "History note Belgium adopted the excellent Mauser-designed 7.65 mm cartridge in 1889, and was followed by Turkey, Argentina, Bolivia, Columbia, Peru and Paraguay in 1891. Manufacture for Belgium took place in a new factory which was to become Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre, (FN). Both Nobels and Kynoch received contracts to manufacture 7.65 mm Mauser for the Belgian armed forces during the First World War. Physical description Description: brass rimless bottlenecked case with cupro-nickel jacketed round nosed bullet secured by a three stab crimp." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 19 October , 2014 Share Posted 19 October , 2014 From the IWM "History note Belgium adopted the excellent Mauser-designed 7.65 mm cartridge in 1889, and was followed by Turkey, Argentina, Bolivia, Columbia, Peru and Paraguay in 1891. Manufacture for Belgium took place in a new factory which was to become Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre, (FN). Both Nobels and Kynoch received contracts to manufacture 7.65 mm Mauser for the Belgian armed forces during the First World War. Physical description Description: brass rimless bottlenecked case with cupro-nickel jacketed round nosed bullet secured by a three stab crimp." I think that may reinforce the commercial case hypothesis - there were never any stab crimps on that caseneck because the shadow would still show even after multiple reloads. The casehead looks as if it's been in and out of breeches many times, but the bullet not even once. Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 19 October , 2014 Share Posted 19 October , 2014 Except that I think that the description may describe the original FN manufactured round. However it does confirm the rounded bullet which appears to have been a Belgian characteristic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve10 Posted 19 October , 2014 Share Posted 19 October , 2014 Hi Have you tried removing the bullet? I have this one in a small collection I inherited that I know very little about (but I am trying to learn). Not sure of a date but what I have seems to range from 1900-1918. Do you think Kynoch on the head stamp looks similar. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radlad Posted 19 October , 2014 Share Posted 19 October , 2014 The full name 'Kynoch' on the headstamp would suggest to me that the round was originally made as commercial ammunition, in which case it could be any date up to about the 1960s. The very slight flare at the casemouth makes me wonder if the bullet's been pulled - so it's possible it's inert; or even a many-times-used reload, from the bruised condition of the casehead. Regards, MikB Agree with you there Mik. That might even be a .303 MkVI bullet in a civvy case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 19 October , 2014 Share Posted 19 October , 2014 The cartridge is rimmed on this example and the Belgian one was if descriptions are correct rimless. Possibly for a 303 British rifle? Nice example of a bullet converted into a pencil which was often done to create a souvenir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve10 Posted 19 October , 2014 Share Posted 19 October , 2014 Hi Thanks Centurion, I have seen them described as 'Trench Art'. Do you think that was the case or was it a factory made retro fit? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 19 October , 2014 Share Posted 19 October , 2014 I think that "trench" in trench art is often misleading as this would probably have needed a work shop to make (to drill the bullet and fit the lead holder so neatly). I suspect that a lot of trench art got made in rear area work shops but whether one would classify that as factory made is a moot point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radlad Posted 19 October , 2014 Share Posted 19 October , 2014 Hi Have you tried removing the bullet? I have this one in a small collection I inherited that I know very little about (but I am trying to learn). Not sure of a date but what I have seems to range from 1900-1918. Do you think Kynoch on the head stamp looks similar. Steve Personally , I would hazard a guess at that being a Pre 1900 .303 MKII round due to the headstamp and lack of cannelure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve10 Posted 19 October , 2014 Share Posted 19 October , 2014 Thanks again Centurion. Hi Radlad, that's earlier than I had guessed. Could it still have made it to GW? Sorry total newbie - What is cannelure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radlad Posted 19 October , 2014 Share Posted 19 October , 2014 No date usually means Pre 1907. The case has a large Berdan primer , it is certainly a strange one to me as I thought all MkII bullets had cannelures. Possibly somebody else can be more precise It is possible the round was still still in stock at the start of WW1, but I would plump for it being a souvenir of the Boer war or just something a soldier made when they were bored. A cannelure is a groove around the bullet that the case mouth crimps into to hold the bullet more securely than a plain bullet would be held. Usefull in military weapons as it helps to prevent bullet set back in magazine and automatic weapons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve10 Posted 19 October , 2014 Share Posted 19 October , 2014 Ok thank you Radlad. Boer War could work as have a couple of Martini Henry cases with the sight holes so think will be similar date. If this is so guess I'll have to move along. So thank you all for your help. Sorry Pete for high jacking your thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeignGong Posted 19 October , 2014 Author Share Posted 19 October , 2014 Hi After all the discussion, I decided to pull the bullet from the cartridge and look what I found. Many thanks for all the input as I would never had thought of pulling it. As I said I have had this for some time and never thought to ask anyone about it. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Posted 5 November , 2014 Share Posted 5 November , 2014 I was given this bullet a few days ago, I did little research on it. Grateful if some members would have a look at it. Is it WW1 from a 1871 mauser rifle Regards Gerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 5 November , 2014 Share Posted 5 November , 2014 Hard to tell any thing much from that angle, Gerry. Could you post a photo of the headstamp on the base of the cartridge and another of the case and bullet standing upright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Posted 5 November , 2014 Share Posted 5 November , 2014 There are no markings on it Siege Gunner, It has black powder inside and it looks like it hasn't been fired. The presentation box it in came in is very well made, I will try and post more pics. Thanks for your reply G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Posted 5 November , 2014 Share Posted 5 November , 2014 more pics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve10 Posted 5 November , 2014 Share Posted 5 November , 2014 I don't know much but I'm pretty sure that won't have been in ww1. It appears to be a lead bullet, these were not permitted following the Hague declaration 1899. They were only deemed usable against 'savages' i.e Zulu, boers etc. As I say I don't know much but I'm sure someone will be along to help shortly. steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Posted 5 November , 2014 Share Posted 5 November , 2014 Thanks Steve, So it's not WW1. There is a weird story attached to it, which I am sceptical about. Gerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve10 Posted 5 November , 2014 Share Posted 5 November , 2014 A weird story? your such a tease! I couldn't say what weapons some country's started the war with. As I said best wait for someone else. Good luck. steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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