Is this bullet WW1 ?

[Beerhunter]

I don't know much about the Republic's firearms laws but in the UK, if the filling is intact then you have round of ammunition and as such it may only be held on a Firearm Certificate. (As is the case with ALL ball ammunition.)

Edited 5 November , 2014 by Beerhunter

[Don]

Thanks Beerhunter,

I'm a bit nervous about the bullet myself and that my procession of it is illegal. But I would like to identify it and to see if it is WW1 related,

I will hand it in to the Gardaí

[4thGordons]

Does the story have anything to do with Ireland? (and perhaps specifically the village port of Howth?)

Chris

[Don]

Hello Chris,

Yes it was Clanwilliam House in Dublin and the chap who had it was called Walsh,the story goes that the bullet top was loose and he didn't want to risk firing it ,so he put it in his pocket .To cut the story short, before he escaped from the building he then put it in his sock as a keep sake.

The box was beautifully made of mahogany later on which to me is much nicer than the bullet

Gerry

[Beerhunter]

I will hand it in to the Gardaí

In the UK, all you need do is dump the filling. (it's probably black powder (gunpowder)

[Don]

I will hand it in to the Gardaí

In the UK, all you need do is dump the filling. (it's probably black powder (gunpowder)

I will try that,

thanks for the tip

Gerry

[Radlad]

It certainly looks like an 11.15x60r Mauser due to it's approximate size and the slightly flat bullet front but there were several similar rounds circulating at the time so more accurate dimensions would clinch the ID. The Mauser cartridge was a very popular one in Europe and Africa and factory production continued up to the 1950's in both black powder and smokeless versions. Headstamps were not that common on standard continental military ammunition before 1890 ish . Commercial production was usually marked.

Personally . I wouldn't be surprised if the rifles were used in colonial wars up to the 1930's and as a secondary (thirdly/fourthly etc) arm in WW1. Many were available in the world surplus markets prior to WW2

[Don]

Thank you Radlad,

very interesting

thank you

[robins2]

I will try that,

thanks for the tip

Gerry

the primer looks live also, wouldn't hurt to pour some oil into casing to deactivate primer powder

regards

bob r.

[Radlad]

Thanks Beerhunter,

I'm a bit nervous about the bullet myself and that my procession of it is illegal. But I would like to identify it and to see if it is WW1 related,

I will hand it in to the Gardaí

I have no knowledge of the firearm laws in your neck of the woods but if you stand the case upright for a week filled with light machine oil (3 in 1 ?) that should kill the priming composition as already stated by Bob, and then, with no propellant charge, that would satisfy UK law and be classed as an inert round. Perfectly legal to own over here.

PS. The 'bullet' is only the lead bit that comes out of the front of the rifle, The brass bit is the cartridge case. The complete unit would be known as a 'round of ammunition' or just 'round' in military parlance and a 'cartridge' in civilian language

Hope that helps

[MikB]

Primers deactivated with oil can recover their live condition if the oil is allowed to evaporate. This takes years, but many 'inert' rounds might be stored or displayed for years or decades. The simple way to prevent the primer from recovering is to charge the case with an appropriate amount of oily sand, rag or tissue before replacing the bullet. This will maintain the vapour saturation of the volatile components in the oil, and effectively prevent evaporation from the primer within any realistic timescale.

Regards,

MikB

[Beerhunter]

Primers are only controlled at the point of sale in the UK. It is not actually illegal to own them.

[MikB]

Primers are only controlled at the point of sale in the UK. It is not actually illegal to own them.

No, but a round capable of expelling its projectile by explosive means probably would be regarded as live, even if the primer was the only propellant. I guess it would take an aggressively punctilious officer to pursue this, but it's simple to insure against, as above.

Regards,

MikB

[steve10]

Thanks for the handy tips gents. Could I ask if there are any bullet types that can't be kept? And is there a difference between keeping and displaying (legally not visually) a round or bullet? For these questions please assume no FAC.

thanks

steve

[Don]

Thanks Lads for the tip re using oil. Will any oil do

[MikB]

Thanks Lads for the tip re using oil. Will any oil do

Engine oil would be a bit heavy. The oil has (AFAIK) no chemical effect on the primer. It works just by defeating the friction between the crystals of the priming composition, and acting as a fluid heatsink to absorb any heat that is generated by crushing or impact - so it has to soak in. Lightish oil like 3-in-1 is probably best - stuff like WD40 works, but is too light and evaporates more easily.

Regards,

MikB

[Chasemuseum]

I would expect any oil will do. The priming composition will be mercury fulminate for any WW1 cartridge and lead azide for latter. In many primers there is a very thin metal foil disk over the primer composition to further protect the composition from contamination. Priming compositions as well as being pressure and shock sensitive are highly reactive to many chemicals which will neutralize them, rending them useless. I have grave doubts that the evaporation of the oil over a long period would “reactivate” a primer composition.

If one wanted to be absolutely sure a primer was inert, it could be heat with an LPG torch until it popped – but wear safety glasses. I cannot recommend the practice as the HSE gnomes would not approve.

Cheers

RT

[MikB]

I have grave doubts that the evaporation of the oil over a long period would “reactivate” a primer composition.

Cheers

RT

It did on a collector's cartridge deactivated in this way that I tried in one of the experiments of my misspent youth. I pulled the bullet, dumped the oily sand, wiped the case inside and sat it on a warm radiator for a few days. Then added powder and reseated the bullet. It went first time like a factory round. Not a mercury primer, though - maybe the results would be different for those.

Regards,

MikB

[Beerhunter]

Thanks for the handy tips gents. Could I ask if there are any bullet types that can't be kept? And is there a difference between keeping and displaying (legally not visually) a round or bullet? For these questions please assume no FAC.

thanks

steve

We need to get back to definitions - again. The bullet is the projectile so let's start with what bullets you CANNOT keep. Keeping to regular rifle and handgun ammunition you may not keep any armour piecing or explosive bullets at all. Without the authority of an FAC you may NOT keep any bullets that are designed or adapted to expand in impact e.g. hollow-points. The same goes for rifled slugs. All "normal" lead or jacked bullets may be kept without a license of any kind.

You may not keep ANY complete round of live ball ammunition without an FAC - period!

You MUST show an FAC in order to acquire primers but it is not an offences to be in possession of primers without an FAC. Black Powder (gunpowder) is a low explosive and so you may not acquire or keep it without an Explosives License. However smokeless powder (such as found in a Great War round of ammunition) is completely free of licensing.

You may keep cartridge cases and complete deactivated rounds with out a license.

BTW, light machine oil is commonly used by dealers to inert primers. IIRC, it does so by altering their chemical composition so I have no idea how drying it out could reverse that.

.

Edited 6 November , 2014 by Beerhunter

[Don]

I would expect any oil will do. The priming composition will be mercury fulminate for any WW1 cartridge and lead azide for latter. In many primers there is a very thin metal foil disk over the primer composition to further protect the composition from contamination. Priming compositions as well as being pressure and shock sensitive are highly reactive to many chemicals which will neutralize them, rending them useless. I have grave doubts that the evaporation of the oil over a long period would “reactivate” a primer composition.

If one wanted to be absolutely sure a primer was inert, it could be heat with an LPG torch until it popped – but wear safety glasses. I cannot recommend the practice as the HSE gnomes would not approve.

Cheers

Much oblige for that

G

RT

[steve10]

We need to get back to definitions - again. The bullet is the projectile so let's start with what bullets you CANNOT keep. Keeping to regular rifle and handgun ammunition you may not keep any armour piecing or explosive bullets at all. Without the authority of an FAC you may NOT keep any bullets that are designed or adapted to expand in impact e.g. hollow-points. The same goes for rifled slugs. All "normal" lead or jacked bullets may be kept without a license of any kind.

You may not keep ANY complete round of live ball ammunition without an FAC - period!

You MUST show an FAC in order to acquire primers but it is not an offences to be in possession of primers without an FAC. Black Powder (gunpowder) is a low explosive and so you may not acquire or keep it without an Explosives License. However smokeless powder (such as found in a Great War round of ammunition) is completely free of licensing.

You may keep cartridge cases and complete deactivated rounds with out a license.

Thank you Beerhunter. I am currently in the process of applying for my FAC and would like to add to my small collection. If I were to acquire say a hollow point (using your example) would that just need to be added to the ammunition section of the licence?

Sorry if these questions are basic. But given recent news stories I do fear collecting something I shouldn't.

Thanks for your help its much appreciated.

[Beerhunter]

The 1968 Act only allows hollow point for hunting. .e.g. I have .22 HP on my FAC for bunnies, squirrels, etc. BTW, as I said earlier that INCLUDES the projectiles.

As to an FAC for collecting, you need an entry something like "300 rounds assorted small arms ammunition". (If Tony was still with us, he would have given the definitive answer.)

[MikB]

The 1968 Act only allows hollow point for hunting. .e.g. I have .22 HP on my FAC for bunnies, squirrels, etc. BTW, as I said earlier that INCLUDES the projectiles.

As to an FAC for collecting, you need an entry something like "300 rounds assorted small arms ammunition". (If Tony was still with us, he would have given the definitive answer.)

I think the phrasing refers to something like 'bullets designed to expand' or suchlike. There are target hollowpoints such as Sierra Palma Match, which I used for years until quite recently. The hollowpoint is very small and is really only there to allow the bullet to be swage backwards, with the jacket entirely covering the base to avoid the risk of small inconsistencies resulting from an open base with heel fold, typical of military ball. As far as I know there's no hunting-only restriction on this type of hollowpoint.

Regards,

MikB

[Beerhunter]

The wording in the Act is exactly as I phrased it: "designed or adapted to expand". Some bullets have hollow points due the manufacturing process and so do not fall under the Act which is why I use that exact phrase.

Edited 7 November , 2014 by Beerhunter

[steve10]

_{As to an FAC for collecting, you need an entry something like "300 rounds assorted small arms ammunition".}

_{One last thing if I may, does the calibre of the gun one owns (eg .22) have no bearing on the calibre ammunition that can be kept (eg 303)? Am I understanding this correctly?}

_{Thanks again.}

_Steve