16th Battalion, C.E.F.

[Guest Bert]

I found these photographs of a grim-looking private soldier in the British Columbia Scottish (16th Battalion) on the 'web site' of the British Transport Police, under a collection of 'images' entitled 'Rogues' Gallery'.

Some unspeakable apparatchik, sitting in a fusty cubicle on his or her fat behind, thought it would be amusing to lump this poor fellow together with professional pick-pockets, prostitutes, and confidence-tricksters. His crime: stealing a box of fish (presumably salted Cod) from the platform of a railway station. Not content with displaying his photograph (which gives one some idea of how confidential information collected by bureaucrats is ultimately abused), the man's full name and service number is appended, so that if his grandson researches his grandfather's service in the Great War, he can find this, and judging the distant event by modern, civilian standards, be thorougly humiliated to find that this brave man was a 'vicious criminal'.

In a more recent conflict, I often had men brought before me, charged with theft of army property, or from civilians. If the man was a good soldier, and he 'borrowed' food, or utility articles, I rarely took any action. If he stole jewellery or personal effects, from his comrades, or from civilians, then I took the strongest measures.

The identical philosophy was prevalent in the Great War. Robert Graves, in Good-bye to All That, records that 'I still had the Army habit of comandeering anything of uncertain ownership that I found lying about...'. Elsewhere he writes that 'By atrocities we meant, specifically, rape, mutilation and torture—not summary shootings of suspected spies, harbourers of spies, francs-tireurs, or disobedient local officials'. This definition still applied in my day.

Many modern writers (most of whom are, at best, redbrick or polytechnic types) regularly disparage Graves and categorize him as 'unreliable'. His principal crime, it appears, was that he was a literary (and literate) man. Most of the objections to him are of the pedantic Graves-dates-the-attack-on-the-sixth-but-Brown-writes-that-it-was-on-the-seventh variety, but I find that, on important matters, his observations coincide perfectly with other contemporary accounts.

PS: Note the C over 16 collar badges, the formation sign, and CANADA shoulder title. Unfortunately the Cross-of-St Andrew badge of the battalion is not visible. I have edited out the man's name below the profile view.

[Terry]

Hi Bert,

Quite a photo; I wonder when I look at the pair of medals in my collection to a private of the 16th who was wounded during the assault on Regina Trench in October,1916, and again at Vimy Ridge, 9 April,1917, if they could have been the same man. I quite agree with your feelings on the pettyness involved.

Cheers,

Terry

[DrB]

Yes, this "hardened criminal" was more than likely trying to change his rather dull ration to something more palatable. Perhaps the guy was just hungry. He does not belong in "Rogues Gallery." Is is unfortunate that the so-called official who decided to list him as such couldn't walk "a mile in his shoes." Perhaps than he/she would not be so judgmental.

DrB

[Myrtle]

I found these photographs of a grim-looking private soldier in the British Columbia Scottish (16th Battalion) on the 'web site' of the British Transport Police, under a collection of 'images' entitled 'Rogues' Gallery'.

 

He does not deserve this sort of publicity especially as he gave his life for his country less than seven months later.

[Guest Bert]

Very many thanks to Terry, DrB, and Myrtle, for their intelligent and sympathetic comments. I have written (via 'e-mail') to the British Transport Police, expressing my contempt for their singular lack of good taste, and I should esteem it a great favour if other readers of the post did the same, for the sake of a valiant man's memory, and the sensibilities of his descendants. I doubt that it will do much good — the feeble minds and stony hearts of placemen aren't easily stirred — but perhaps it will cause some minor, temporary embarrasment.

[GrandsonMichael]

Agree!

It's absolutely disgusting and degrading. They also mention some other fellow is one-armed, so....what?

Can you give us an Email address, all I could find was one for reporting graffitti.

Thanks Bert,

Michael

[Guest Bert]

Dear Michael - I used this address: simon.lubin@btp.pnn.police.uk which is billed as the BTP 'Media and Customer Relations' contact. V. many thanks. Bert

[GrandsonMichael]

Thanks Bert,

I'll blast them and lodge an official complaint.

I'll keep you posted.

Cheers,

Michael

[Guest Bert]

I have had a reply to my 'e-mail' to the British Transport Police:

Thanks for your comment, but I'm afraid I cannot agree with you.

These items are public information and of historical interest, most of

the items are almost a century old. I will, however, pass you [sic] message to

our Historical Society, who produce the pages.

Simon Lubin

Media Relations

British Transport Police

15 Tavistock Place

London WC1H 9SY

Tel: 020 7830 8854

Fax: 020 7830 8935

Mob: 07771 670116

As I wrote in my earlier post - the feeble minds and stony hearts of placemen aren't easily stirred.

[GrandsonMichael]

Right Bert,

Change of tactics. I've looked up who the boss is and shall send him a snailmail complaint.

In my experience they don't like to be bothered with these things and might pressurize their 'underlings'....

Cheers,

Michael

[chris.wight]

Perhaps pointing out how easy it is to trace this man's attestation papers and on the CWGC site (with the actual links as proof) might make more of an impression.

[GrandsonMichael]

Good thinking...

I'll use your suggestion to let them litterally see what the're doing...hopefully.

Cheers,

Michael

[Myrtle]

Also ask him/her "How would they feel if the soldier was a relative of him/her."

[Guest Bert]

One certainly hopes that even wretched bureaucrats have some finer feelings, buried deep inside their repulsive shells, and that chris.wight's and Myrtle's suggestions will reach them. If GrandsonMichael will post the name and address of the BTP's Chief Constable (or whatever they're styled, now-a-days) I, too, will write him a strong letter of protest. I am trying to get some Canadians interested in this sorry business, and I've contacted M. Dorosh (who created the Canadian Soldiers 'web-site') to see if I can locate some 16th Battalion decendants.

[GrandsonMichael]

Here goes: http://www.btp.police.uk/chief.htm

Take your pick, might not be a bad idea to inform all the brass that we are 'not amused at all'.

I'll target the top honcho...

Polite, factual and convincing but bring it home to them.

Cheers,

Michael

[Archer]

As it happens I am a 16th Battalion descendant - or as near a descendant as someone could be in relation to my father's uncles:

Private Percy Owen Payze, 46th Battalion, and 16th Battalion, CEF. He died [childless] of his wounds at No. 3 Canadian Casualty Clearing station in Belgium on 20 July 1916.

Private Archer Robert Payze, 50th Regiment (The Gordon Highlanders of Canada), and 16th Battalion, CEF. He died [childless] of his wounds on 3 June 1915, and was buried in Le Treport military cemetery in France.

And as it happens I do not agree with this thread at all.

As I posted elsewhere, if we are so PC that we (The Pals) can't stand the sight of a picture of a Canadian soldier and thief among pictures on a Rogues' Gallery (though we say nothing about the civilians pictured on the same website), how is it that we can tolerate anyone calling Mons Star recipient Douglas Haig a 'butcher.'

My great-uncles didn't run foul of the Railways Police (so far as I know,) although at least one - and possibly both - was/were no angel - but all this upset over a member of the Battalion who did pinch something and get caught serves to cheapen their sacrifice.

Death in the field does not confer retrospective sainthood. Some who died were rogues.

It's time you blokes began to understand that we are not made better - or worse - people by our ancestors. We are who we are.

If grandpa stole a box of fish, so be it. No amount of hand-wringing can alter that fact.

But to whinge about recording his fate because he was a war casualty is to attempt to pervert the course of history - AND - by making his crime 'unmentionable,' you actually lay it at the door of his descendants as if it were something too dirty to be spoken of.

By the way, a genealogically inclined descendant might well be over the moon to find a picture of granddad in uniform by searching the net.

Shame on you ... but regards anyway,

William

[Archer]

p.s. Bert calls the Battalion the

British Columbia Scottish (16th Battalion)

Surely it was actually the 16th Battalion (Manitoba Regiment) (The Canadian Scottish) ?

[David_Bluestein]

I'm with you Archer.

D

[brownag]

p.s. Bert calls the Battalion the

British Columbia Scottish (16th Battalion)

Surely it was actually the 16th Battalion (Manitoba Regiment) (The Canadian Scottish) ?

A large contingent of the 16th was made up from the 72nd Seaforth Highladers of Canada which was (and still) is a B.C. unit from Vancouver.

[Broznitsky]

The 16th Overseas Battalion was a composite battalion, assembled at Valcartier in the early fall of 1914. It included contingents from several "Highlander" militia regiments, including, as mentioned, the 72nd Seaforths.

It was known as the Canadian Scottish, and is perpetuated by a modern British Columbia unit.

Finally, I agree with Archer and David about this matter.

[koyli]

I totally agree with Archer in this.

It seems that if you did your bit for king and country, you could then run foul of all the principles that we are supposed to stand for and defend.

Koyli

[chris.wight]

Archer it has nothing to do with being politically correct. I have no problem with putting up the fellow's photo, what I disagree with is putting up his regimental number which can easily be traced to his on-line papers. A genealogically inclined decendent may not be over the moon to discover this piece of information.

I also wonder if they would be so quick to post a photo of "Lord Whomever" or "Sir Whatever, M.P." with details of their crime?

[GrandsonMichael]

Hi there William,

Everyone's entitled to his or her opinion, that goes without saying.

To put shame on others for ventilating their anger is not very 'gentlemen like'. But that's beside the point really....

Have you actually had a look at The Rogues Gallery?

Let's start with a definition of the actual term used here: 'a group of bad people'. Bad??? Rogue: 'a man who is dishonest and has a bad character'.

So evidently according to the British Transport Police this applies to any person who does something wrong. Be they military or civilian. And I actually wrote that mentioning the fact that a person's right arm was amputated (of a civilian in this case) is completely irrelevant.

Mentioning a soldier - as Bert & Chris pointed out - identifieble to their descendents -who stole something in one breath with a hardened criminal who was convicted 22 times before, is not only irrelevant but indeed degrading.

Actually the whole concept used by the B.T.P. is degrading. Their examples suddenly stop in 1939, undoubtedly because they cannot be sued before 1940 or so.

Reasons enough to protest in my view.

Cheers,

Michael

[Archer]

I apologise for putting shame on you.

In my view you oughtn't to be ventilating your anger.

But the point is made.

Regards anyway

William

[Guest Bert]

Our honourable friends Archer et al are entitled to their opinions, which I am certain are a sincere and true reflection of the contents of their conscience. By the same token, I must be true to the promptings of my conscience, which do not allow me to stand idly by whilst a man who was willing to face the terrible reality of the Great War, without looking for an 'easy out' (as so many did), is villified for what was, by the standards of the time and place, a prank. I sincerely hope that none of these gentlemen will ever fall into the clutches of a police organization, so that they may be able to continue believing that this Canadian soldier received justice.