British Army ranks

[Soldier100]

Hello all,

Can anybody answer this question? In the British Army, a Lieutenant is the second Army officer's rank, and a Major is the forth in the Army rankings, so why is it that after the rank of Brigadier, a Major General comes before a Lt. General? Many thanks, Soldier100

[IPT]

In the olden days, when some of the forum members were young whippersnappers, seniority in battle would have been;

1) Captain General

2) Lieutenant General

3) Serjeant Major General

Drop the "Serjeant" and Bob's your uncle.

[Scalyback]

Lt deputises for his superior officer. Be it a 1 pip wonder or Major General. Brigadier was not a rank in the Great war. It was between field officer and General rank.

[Muerrisch]

Lt deputises for his superior officer. Be it a 1 pip wonder or Major General. Brigadier was not a rank in the Great war. It was between field officer and General rank.

Er, no.

The Royal Warrant for Pay, etc, 1914:

para 66.

........the rank of brigadier-general shall be local or temporary only.

So: not brigadier but brigadier-general

and not between Field and General, but a substantive field officer [usually lt-col or full colonel], and a local or temporary general officer.

The equivalent of a RN Commodore, who was a captain RN with temporary command of a squadron for a specific task or period.

[Terry_Reeves]

It apparently comes from 17th Century when the Lt General commanded the Cavalry and the Sergeant-Major General commanded the infantry,. Later the word Sergeant was dropped.

TR

[IPT]

The problem is that these terms seem to have come and gone, and with differing meanings.

There is plenty of interesting information in "The Standing Army" http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=50wRAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA407&lpg=PA407&dq=%22serjeant+major+general%22&source=bl&ots=nyduwpsZwj&sig=tzx-EVdgkN--FHbqnlKdDnRfDPc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3CdmVKK8O8Hnas2ygPgC&ved=0CDEQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=%22major%20general%22&f=false

I particularly like "Scout Master General" from 1518. I imagine him in shorts, doing something with a Swiss army penknife and some knots.

[Scalyback]

Er, no.

The Royal Warrant for Pay, etc, 1914:

para 66.

........the rank of brigadier-general shall be local or temporary only.

So: not brigadier but brigadier-general

and not between Field and General, but a substantive field officer [usually lt-col or full colonel], and a local or temporary general officer.

The equivalent of a RN Commodore, who was a captain RN with temporary command of a squadron for a specific task or period.

Was there some moving the goal posts in the 1920s about the actual rank/appointment of said Brigadiers? IE they had to many of them. I was lead to belive them to be fish nor fowl.

EDIT 1922 there was a bit of a flap over them being senior col or junior Gen. I thought they just got placed as inbetween. My own confusion Grumpy, forgive me.

[martin_sole]

Wasn't Harry Flashman commissioned as Sergeant General in the Madagascar Army by Queen Ranavalona?

[Ron Clifton]

Was there some moving the goal posts in the 1920s about the actual rank/appointment of said Brigadiers? IE they had to many of them. I was lead to belive them to be fish nor fowl.

EDIT 1922 there was a bit of a flap over them being senior col or junior Gen. I thought they just got placed as inbetween. My own confusion Grumpy, forgive me.

Received wisdom seems to be that it was a ploy by the Treasury to cut costs - senior field officers were entitled to lower rates of various allowances than were junior generals. The rank of brigadier-general was changed to colonel commandant in about 1920, and to brigadier in about 1928.

Ron

[Ron Clifton]

Wasn't Harry Flashman commissioned as Sergeant General in the Madagascar Army by Queen Ranavalona?

So he claimed!

Ron

[Stoppage Drill]

It apparently comes from 17th Century when the Lt General commanded the Cavalry and the Sergeant-Major General commanded the infantry,. Later the word Sergeant was dropped.

TR

That doesn't ring true, pace Wikipedia.

The German armies never had a "Sergeant Major General" and yet they have a Generalmajor rank which - as in the British system - is subordinate to Generalleutnant.

[Ron Clifton]

Probably they didn't have either rank until Frederick the Great's time, by which time the sergeant bit had been dropped.

In the 17th century, generals were usually appointed for specific campaigns, and were chosen from suitable senior colonels.

Ron

[Terry_Reeves]

That doesn't ring true, pace Wikipedia.

The German armies never had a "Sergeant Major General" and yet they have a Generalmajor rank which - as in the British system - is subordinate to Generalleutnant.

The German army has nothing to do with it., Major R Money Barnes in his book Regiments and Uniforms of the British Army has this to say on the subject, refering to the civil war period:

"Ranks of General Officers

An interesting point is that this force (the New Model Army) was commanded by Captain-General Sir Thomas Fairfax. The cavalry was under Lt-General Oliver Cromwell, and the infantry under Sergeant-Major General Skippon. This is the explanation of that familiar conundrum. "Why is a Lieutenant- General senior to a Major-General?" The answer is (a) The Major-General was originally a Sergeant-Major Genera;; and ( the first Lieutenant-General commanded the cavalry, which was the senior branch of the service."

TR

[Stoppage Drill]

Suit yourself.

[Muerrisch]

Captain-lieutenant, anybody

[Ron Clifton]

Yes indeed. In the 18th century the colonel was also nominally the captain of one of the companies, which was effectively commanded by its lieutenant, who was called the captain-lieutenant.

No connection with the Kapitanleutnant of the German Navy.

Ron

[Scalyback]

Captain-lieutenant, anybody

Is that the senior Lt placed in a captains position? Something to due with the purchase system?

What was the main use of Full colonels during the great war? Did they all have staff duties?

[bill24chev]

Is that the senior Lt placed in a captains position? Something to due with the purchase system?

What was the main use of Full colonels during the great war? Did they all have staff duties?

Yes their were no Colonels in command positions as such but of course they may have held Brigadier General posts. The exception may be in the RAMC were a Field Hospital may have had a full colonel in command.

In the European and US Armies a full colonel was the Co of a three Bn. Regiment

The rank of Colonel was, I believe, an automatic promotion after a set number of years as a Substantive or Brevet Lt. Col. Probably why, due to Treasury pressure, that many Battalion Commanders were temporary or acting Lt. Col. just in case they survived long enough to gain promotion and increased salary as a full Colonel.

[Ron Clifton]

I don't think so. I am away from my books at the moment but I'm fairly certain that the only promotion which was automatic was from Lieutenant-General to General, based on seniority and a vacancy arising. Even this was revoked during the War. But there may have been a rule that, after a certain number of years, a lieutenant-colonel who failed to gain promotion to colonel had to retire.

The CRA of a division was a colonel in peacetime, but they became brigadier-generals on mobilisation. Whilst GSO1 was usually a lieutenant-colonel's appointment, nearly all of the GSO1s who were divisional chiefs of staff in the original BEF were full colonels.

Military attaches, of whom there were only about a dozen in those days, and those officers appointed as ADCs to the King, were normally appointed as brevet colonels.

Ron

[IPT]

Were Witchfinder Generals mobilized?

[remeraoc]

I was always taught that Major General was in fact a short version of Sergeant Major General. How it came about, I am not sure and never have been.

[IPT]

Yes, I believe that after "sergeant" was dropped, they became the very model of a modern Major-General.

[Steven Broomfield]

Some years ago, when serving as a TA Royal Corps of Sinals Lance Corporal, my unit did a camp in Germany, at a fuel depot. The chap in charge revelled in the rank of "Conductor" (which I believe is unique to the RAOC).

I will leave the reader to imagine his face when asked by one of our scruffier Signallers where his band was.

[Scalyback]

Interesting that they do appear to be a loss what to do with full Col. To senior to command, to junior to have clout!

[Scalyback]

Some years ago, when serving as a TA Royal Corps of Sinals Lance Corporal, my unit did a camp in Germany, at a fuel depot. The chap in charge revelled in the rank of "Conductor" (which I believe is unique to the RAOC).

I will leave the reader to imagine his face when asked by one of our scruffier Signallers where his band was.

Something about TA signals on Tour. Annual camp was in sunny Gib and everyone was informed it was no holiday. The Troop OC on the first night decided that crashing through a honeymooners table was the way forward. It went down hill from there with "Tour guides" being given appointments to lead the troops R&R. 3 days of playing war, 11 days of being a tourist............................