British Army ranks

[Ron Clifton]

Scalyback

Possibly that's why you won't find them in the GWF rank structure!

Ron

[remeraoc]

Good morning Steven and all.

I'm not sure if the rank of conductor is in fact a rank or an appointment; I do know that he is the most senior NCO in the Army.

Senior member in the Sgt's mess and parades with the Officers. We had one at 17 RVD in the late 60's

Jim

[Scalyback]

Just don't say "Tickets please"!

Goggle conductor on here and ARRSE and lot if discussion of conductor role/senior etc.

[Stoppage Drill]

Some years ago, when serving as a TA Royal Corps of Sinals Lance Corporal, my unit did a camp in Germany, at a fuel depot. The chap in charge revelled in the rank of "Conductor" (which I believe is unique to the RAOC).

I will leave the reader to imagine his face when asked by one of our scruffier Signallers where his band was.

An RAOC appointment, sometimes explained as the "senior WO1 appointment in the army" , though where that leaves the AcSM I am not sure.

Poor old Rag And Oil Company - the Staff Sergeant who ran the bread factory at Bielefeld used to answer his phone by barking "Master Baker" which certainly resulted in extensive muffled titters.

Sinal ?

[Steven Broomfield]

Feminine of sinus.

[Guest]

For odd-sounding appointments Woordie-Major takes some beating.

Here is a picture of a particularly fierce-looking one Click

[Khaki]

Just to make things a little more complicated I have just been reading on line that the old rank of 'cornet' still exists in the household cavalry, but I have never read any reference to it being used in the Great War. I presume that 2nd Lieutenant (lieutenant) was the norm in the field, was it just retained out of tradition but not referred to.?

khaki

[Gareth Davies]

The Life Guards dropped the term Cornet back in the late 19th century but the The Royal Horse Guards (The Blues) retained it and still use it, as do the Queen's Royal Hussars.

[Muerrisch]

The old chestnut: conductor as most senior : simply not true.
Yes conductors founded 1879 two years before other WOs created.
I have every Queen/king Regs thereafter.
They divide WOs into bands. Conductor always in senior band and always until recently alphabetically first. List always asterisked to effect each appointment of WO in each band takes precedence in date order of promotion or appointment.
thus Conductor claim based on timing and alphabet and is simply unsustainable.

[Scalyback]

How many served as conductor during the war? Unique to the AOC? So can't be many of them, I do however have a picture of a gravestone to one.

[bill24chev]

How many served as conductor during the war? Unique to the AOC? So can't be many of them, I do however have a picture of a gravestone to one.

Also an ASC appointment I beleive in WW1

bill

[rolt968]

I believe that there were both conductors and sub conductors in the Indian Army. I get the impression they were not unique.

http://www.bl.uk/reshelp/findhelpregion/asia/india/indiaofficerecordsfamilyhistory/glossary/glossaryc/glossaryc.html

However I am never quite sure with the Indian Army what are official appointment titles and traditional usages left over from EIC days.

I ran across one somewhere in the 1900s who eventually got the IA equivalent of a quartermaster's commission.

R

[Scalyback]

Also an ASC appointment I beleive in WW1

bill

Will read up on the ASC, been promising myself the history of the ASC for a long time. However £25 on a 2nd hand copy the History of the Ordnance Survey has blown the months budget!

[Muerrisch]

Yes, Sub Conductors indeed existed; they did not collect fares and issue tickets on commercial submarines either.

[FROGSMILE]

The old chestnut: conductor as most senior : simply not true.

Yes conductors founded 1879 two years before other WOs created.

I have every Queen/king Regs thereafter.

They divide WOs into bands. Conductor always in senior band and always until recently alphabetically first. List always asterisked to effect each appointment of WO in each band takes precedence in date order of promotion or appointment.

thus Conductor claim based on timing and alphabet and is simply unsustainable.

Although in some respects what you say is true I believe it is a little more nuanced than that Grumpy.

It is correct that the conductor was just one in a band or grouping (my terminology) of warrant officers with each band listed alphabetically in QRs and the Conductors appearing at the top, which led to their claim to be senior to all the other WOs in that band, when in fact each was equal and took seniority by date of appointment (shades of Burton and Cain dialogue in film ZULU here).

However, the Conductors can claim to be the first amongst equals as Warrant Officers when the rank was first introduced in 1879.

In that regard the Royal Warrant that brought them into being was quite unambiguous:

“to assist in the discharge of the subordinate duties of the Commissariat and Transport and of the Ordnance Store Departments of our Army, to be denominated ‘Conductors of Supplies’ and ‘Conductors of Stores’ respectively. Their position in our Army shall be inferior to that of all commissioned officers and superior to that of all non-commissioned officers. Conductors shall at the same time have full power to exercise command over any subordinates of the Departments of our Army, or non-commissioned officers or soldiers of our Army, who may be placed under their orders”.

Presumably it must also be significant that whereas Sergeant Majors of units (later RSMs) initially (until 1881) continued to wear chevron and crown based badges of rank, Conductors wore no such badges at all and instead had just a 'special tunic' (probably extra gold lace - perhaps similar to a subaltern - who also had no badge of rank at that time).

It is also notable that when badges of rank were introduced for them in 1901, the Conductors wore a crown within a laurel wreath and Sergeant Majors of units wore just the plain crown. There is a direct parallel and precedent set there that is similar to the relationship today between the RQMS of a unit and the Sub-unit Sergeant Majors. Furthermore when Sub-Conductors were authorised for badges they were allocated with the plain crown, which firmly bracketed them with the Sergeant Majors of units, leaving the Conductors only with the manifestly superior, wreathed crown. Both grades of Conductor were also to wear special gorgets, the only 'other ranks' to do so and seemingly placing them in a bracket with specialist staff officers.

It is by these points of history that I mean the true situation was nuanced.

[Muerrisch]

Yes, most certainly nuanced, and even more so currently, with the AcSM and all sorts of "Corps RSMs" such as I cannot keep up with. Not to mention Garrison SM London District with his unique distinction.

For those without access, this is the relevant list in 1914:

group conductor AOC, Master gunner first class RA, schoolmaster if a 1st class WO [and what that means is a mystery, as WO II did not come in until a year later], staff sergeant major first class ASC.

I believe all of the above except the schooly wore the crown and wreath.

group [ii] master gunner second

group [iii] garrison sergeant major

group [iv] all other WO except Special Reserve

group [v] SR WO.

I dare say the whole lot might have to bend the knee before a RN Warrant Officer on his own ship, as in a Frank Richards anecdote!

[Ron Clifton]

I think the Warrant rank in the RN has been obsolete for many years, but there seems to be a rank of Fleet Chief Petty Officer who wears a Royal Arms badge like that of a WO I.

Ron

[Terry_Reeves]

In fact the RN now has Warrant Officer 1 and Warrant Officer 2 ranks. They appear in the pay scales here:

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/careers/pay-benefits-and-learning/pay-details

TR