SOMMESOLDIER Posted 1 November , 2004 Share Posted 1 November , 2004 Hi There, Does anyone out there have any information about Pte John Jones 21484 of the 22nd Manchesters Killed In Action 1-7-16 buried in Dantzig Alley. Cheers Tim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpm Posted 1 November , 2004 Share Posted 1 November , 2004 Tim, SDGW adds:- Born Liscard, Cheshire, Enlisted Manchester. Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Beckett Posted 2 November , 2004 Share Posted 2 November , 2004 Tim, I have just searched through the 22nd Manchesters Roll of Honour CD and can't find him there. His number appears to be in the right bracket but so far the closest are the following: Jones, H 21148 A Coy Platoon 1 Jones, E 21374 D Coy Platoon 16 Jones, J 21363 E Coy Platoon 17 I will go back and do a closer search but he may not have joined up in the original enlistments. Croonaert ( Dave O'Mara) will be able to correct me on this. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Beckett Posted 2 November , 2004 Share Posted 2 November , 2004 Tim, had another look and no Jones, J 21484. The highest number in the 22nd was 21467 E Coy Plat 20 which was the last raised for the 22nd. The next batch starts at 21500 for the 23rd Manchesters Over to Dave Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOMMESOLDIER Posted 2 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 2 November , 2004 Hi Peter, I'm Very interested about your mention of a 22nd Manchester roll of honour CD. Is This part of SDGW or something seperate. If it is, how do I get hold of one please. Cheers Tim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Beckett Posted 2 November , 2004 Share Posted 2 November , 2004 Tim, It is a PDF style Book of Honour of all the 90th and 91st Infantry Brigades of the Manchester Regiment. It is obtainable from the Manchester & Lancashire Family History Society. Their webpage is: http://www.mlfhs.org.uk/ 1604 Manchester City Battalions 1 - Book of Honour - £7.50 (£6.38 ex-VAT), 90gm Part 1 of the Manchester City Battalions Book of Honour published in 1916. A platoon-by-platoon listing of the officers and men of the 16th -23rd (City) battalions. Each list is accompanied by a platoon photograph though sadly, individual men are not identified in the photographs. Includes full name index. I was lucky with my Grandfather that although his name was spelt Layland not Leyland, his number was correct and I picked him out of the Platoon photo. It is well worth buying Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 2 November , 2004 Share Posted 2 November , 2004 Tim I've double-checked the CD and I can't find him either. Which is very odd. Mainly because I would have thought that as he was a 1 July casualty, then he should have been an original "Pal". It may have been different for the 22nd Bn, but certainly the 17th did not receive any drafts of replacements until after 1 July. It may well be worth you investing in the few quid to buy the CD and check the 22nd Battalion pages individually (which are PDFs of the original book). Peter & I are working off the recent additon of an index - which may, of course, have errors. You may actually find him listed, after all. The other possibility is that seeing is number is only slightly higher than the highest Peter has found for the battalion, then he may well have been a very late joiner who is simply not on the photographs (I don't know exactly when they were taken - but I've always assumed it was while they were in training at Grantham). In which case, all you can try to do is see if his papers survive at the National Archive. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Beckett Posted 2 November , 2004 Share Posted 2 November , 2004 Tim, I agree with John but I also looked at all the entries for the 22nd and 23rd, just in case he was there and not in the index. I also have a case of PDF squint Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOMMESOLDIER Posted 2 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 2 November , 2004 Hi There, Thanks so much for all the effort you've put in I will get the copies and look myself. I'm just a bit daunted now that He is a 'MYSTERY' but it should be very interesting. Thanks once again. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyem1 Posted 2 November , 2004 Share Posted 2 November , 2004 Hi to all, Peter and John I hope this will not upset the cart, but I have a man by the name of Harold Makin 25641 22nd Bn The Manchester Reg. KIA 1st July 1916. gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 2 November , 2004 Share Posted 2 November , 2004 It must be borne in mind that the "Manchester City Battalion's Book of Honour" is not the complete listing. If anything, it only contains the first (or first couple of?) drafts. There were others joining and leaving these battalions before they arrived in France (roughly 10 - 12 months between this and the compiling of the book). Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 2 November , 2004 Share Posted 2 November , 2004 Dave Have you any idea where/when the photos were taken? I'm assuming that it's before the went overseas in autumn 1915. And it's after January 1915 as my grandfather is in it. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 3 November , 2004 Share Posted 3 November , 2004 Dave Have you any idea where/when the photos were taken? I'm assuming that it's before the went overseas in autumn 1915. And it's after January 1915 as my grandfather is in it. John I believe them (the majority of them) to have been taken Heaton Park between February (issue of SD, but not necessarily to all, and only a % of SD caps) and end of March 1915. If you want me to pinpoint a month though, I'd go for February as , by the time they left Heaton Park, there was more foliage on the trees and there was a better percentage of complete SD uniforms issued. Also pre-February, most would be wearing the "blues" and , as you said, your grandad wouldn't be in it! Some photos though (mainly the officer shots of some of the "later" battalions) could have been taken at a later date, possibly April/May 1915 at Belton Park. For the OR's though, I'd go for February. (I'm convinced that Heaton Hall appears on some photos) Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harribobs Posted 3 November , 2004 Share Posted 3 November , 2004 Dave i was under the impression the photo's were done in heaton park as well (does stedman mention it?) I will have another look to see if I can spot heaton hall also I agree that when you look at the pics it would seem some of the pals are wearing a colour uniform to the rest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 3 November , 2004 Share Posted 3 November , 2004 So, to get back to Tim's original query, is out collective wisdom that his man must have joined up sometime after February (ish) when the photos were taken and before 12 November when they went overseas. The presumption must be that he joined early in this time-frame, otherwise he would not have undertaken the training. The main replacements for the "weeded out" ones from the original 4 compnaies, came from the more recently created "E" Coys (which Grandad Brough was originally in before his transfer to "A" of the 17th) John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Beckett Posted 8 November , 2004 Share Posted 8 November , 2004 Gary, apologies for not replying as I been out of Vic working. Will do a check for you. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Beckett Posted 8 November , 2004 Share Posted 8 November , 2004 Gary, a full check of the index and the 21st, 22nd and 23rd has no H Makin 25641 listed. There are 5 Makins listed but they are numbers ranging from 10685 to 199443 and of these none were in the 22nd. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Beckett Posted 8 November , 2004 Share Posted 8 November , 2004 I believe them (the majority of them) to have been taken Heaton Park between February and end of March 1915. Some photos though (mainly the officer shots of some of the "later" battalions) could have been taken at a later date, possibly April/May 1915 at Belton Park. (I'm convinced that Heaton Hall appears on some photos) Dave. To go along with Dave's reasoning here are 2 shots with buildings in background. Can they be identified today? Peter Hall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Beckett Posted 8 November , 2004 Share Posted 8 November , 2004 Hall 2 Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DNH Posted 8 November , 2004 Share Posted 8 November , 2004 I think it is Heaton Hall in the background of the officers' shot, and the old refreshment rooms in the background of the other ranks' photograph, which burned down in the ?1980s? Either way, that same building appears in the background of some of the photos of the Manchester Pals training in Heaton Park. Just by way of narrowing the date down a little further, the last known survivor of the Manchester Pals was a chap called Albert Hurst (d1995), who did an extensive oral history interview with the IWM in c1989/1990. He said he joined E Company of 17th Battalion on Shrove Tuesday 1915. He is in the book (Platoon XVIII, no.9311), suggesting a date between Feb 1915 (I bet somebody actually knows what date ST in Feb 15 was!) and April 15, when the battalions left for Grantham. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOMMESOLDIER Posted 8 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 8 November , 2004 Hi To Everyone, Thanks so much for all the replies and all the extra information, it has been brilliant. I have learnt so much. Cheers Tim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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