Hackney Gurkhas - Lemnos - Cairo?

[Timble]

Hi,

I'm new to the forum and want to try and research my Grandfather, James Victor Martin from Dalston, without spending too much money.

I don't know if he received any medals, I don't know his service number or his rank. All I know is this:

He said he was in the "Hackney Gurkhas" and I was told he was shot when he was at Gallipoli, he used to tell a story about when they landed, they ran too far and found themselves behind enemy lines and had to turn around and run back. After getting shot in the leg with a dum-dum bullet, .he had his knee cap removed (or the bits that were left). He then recouperated on a Greek Island (which he thoroughly enjoyed) and after rehabilitation he was sent to North Africa with Allenby where apparently he looked after the camels. I have a piece of card with a picture of him with a hand drawn bottle of rum with Cairo 1918 underneath. When he was demobbed and came back to London, he started getting malaria attacks and was diagnosed with chronic malaria -which meant he would keep getting bouts of malaria for many years afterwards. He was born in Dalston in 1898. Apparently he had a very high regard of theTurkish Soldiers and liked a drink or two and would also quite often get in rows with Australian soldiers in bars.

I know its all not much to go on and a bit wishy washy. After a little bit of research, I've concluded that he must have been in the London 1/10th Battallion which became part of 162nd Brigade, and that he was at Suvla bay not Gallipoli (perhaps people would just say Gallipoli as a general term for the Dardanelles campaign?). i've read some of the excellent posts on the landing at Suvla Bay and the actions, floods, freezing conditions, dehydration, constant sniping and bickering between some commanding offcers. I must admit as a grown man of 56, its had me in tears that people could be put through such a horrific experience and at the terrible loss of life on both sides.

So,there are more things that don't add up and need deeper research. I wonder if the storyabout running behind the enemy lines is trueor hasit become confused with theLondon 1/10th taking a hill in Palestine and havng to give up the position later? Reading someof the information on here, mostof the casulties were sent to Malta via Mudros, Lemnos - I wonder if he could have been treated ona hospital ship and then recouperated on Lemnos? Also the reference to looking after camels(hecouldn't kneel down afterhis injury,so may have been unable to take part in active combat. Did the London 1/10th have camels? If they didn't, perhaps he could have been transferred to the Imperial Camel Corps - I believe they had one person holding the camels while the others were engaged in action.

I understand that many WW1 records - including the Imperial Camel Corps - were burned after an air raid. i was thinking that my next course of action might be to stump up the money to get his Pension Record - presumably as he was shot and had malaria, he might have got a pension, which would give me his service number or numbers. Is this the best route, or is it more cost effective to join one of these online research co's? - which i'm a bit loathe to do.

All the best

Tim

[johnboy]

Try and find a Medal Index Card for him FREE on Ancestry UK. That should show his regiment and service number. If he got 14 or 14/15 Star it will tell you when he went overseas and where.

A word of advice , forget family stories until they are proved!

[Timble]

hI,

Thanks to johnboy, I seem to be making headway. After a bit of searching, i've found a candidate that could possibly be my grandad: The Medal record card I found is for a Private James Martin, it shows 4 different Corps/Regiments and 3 different regimental numbers: NORF R (rgtl no. 32651), CAMB R (417890), SUFF. R and 19. LON R (623347). I hope I'm right in thinking that this record could be a fit because of a) The name fits The 1/10th London became part of the Norfolk regmt? and c) the 2/19 London Battalion St.Pancras were with Allenby in North Africa. I'm not sure though (wonder if there is any way of checking the regimental numbers) and the Cambridge and Suffolk part is confusing.

He didn't get a star, adjacent to "Victory" and under "Roll" it says "TP.19/101 B6" under "page" is written "737" and under "British" it has "-do-"and "do"....not sure what any of this means.

Thanks for the help so far anyway

Tim

[michaeldr]

there is also a James Victor Martin here; see http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D3961255

Reference: WO 372/13/147940 Description:

Medal card of Martin, James Victor

Corps Regiment No

Rank Royal Fusiliers 35748 Private

Labour Corps 476611 Private

Royal Army Service Corps ES/58263 Private

Date: 1914-1920

Held by: The National Archives, Kew Legal status: Public Record

It may be worth £3.30 to check it out

[johnboy]

A regiment was a stand alone unit. London Regiment was a TF regiment and his 6 digit number with them would have been issued early 1917? If you go to Long Long Trail top left of this page search for renumbering for the date in case I am wrong.

Not being awarded a Star medal gives you the info that he did not go overseas until after 1/1/16

[Neil Mackenzie]

Tim

I don't think the James Martin with 4 Regiments is your grandfather. His MIC does not have a date of entry to a theatre of war but he does have Victory Medal and War Medal. I am no expert on these things but to me that says he first appeared in a theatre of operations after 1915 and that does not really tie up with your Gallipoli story.

There are a couple of MICS for a James Martin where unit could be 10th or 16th London Regiment e.g. Private James Martin (Service No. 330) - landed in the Balkans theatre of operations on 10/8/15 (the 10th Bn London Regiment landed in Suvla on 11 August) or James Martin (1879) who could have landed on 10th or 16th August again in the Balkans. My money would be on the former to be honest but I am sure someone who knows more about interpreting Medal Index Cards than I do will advise.

Neil

[Timble]

Yes thanks everyone,

I think Neil is right it could be Private James Martin Service number 330 (420123)10 Lond Reg - phew could have been going down a blind alley there! Its very easy to get carried away with it all and make assumptions. The second MIC is for someone too old, he might have lied about his age by one or two years, but 1879 would make him too old. So what's the best thing to do,to check that 330 is the right one? Is ancestory the best route (sign up for a month).

Thanks again, all the best

Tim

[johnboy]

Try Find My Past, FREE for 3 days started today.

[Langdon]

James Martin 330 and 420123 from his Medal Roll had three theatres of war -

2a Gallipoli & Aegean (6.8.15 - 13.12.15)

4a British East Africa, German East Africa, Rhodesia, Nyasaland and Uganda (18.12.15 - 18.3.16)

4b German South West Africa (19.3.16 - 23.5.19)

Mike

Edited 6 March , 2015 by Langdon

[headgardener]

I very much doubt that it's 330 Pte. James Martin - that regimental number would indicate that he was one of the original cohort at the time of the formation of the TF (1908), at which point the man in the OP would have been 10 years old.

[headgardener]

p.s. For him to have served at Gallipoli would have required him to have joined up by about late 1914, at which point he would have been 16 years old. Possible, but family stories are often distorted and altered over time. I don't have Ancestry so I can't help much beyond suggesting that you start with the 10/London side of things and work back from there. We also know that he was probably in Cairo in 1918. The rest may or may not be correct.

[Langdon]

And James Martin 1879 / 420842 has the same theatres of war details as 3300 (Ancestry Medal Roll) - not exactly N. Africa, Allenby and camels..

Mike

[Neil Mackenzie]

After Gallipoli 10th Bn went to Egypt. The link below is to the war diary of the 5th Bn Bedfordshire Regiment. They were in the same Brigade as 1/10th Bn London Regiment and the war diary mentions them a number of times. The 5th Bn Bedfordshire Regiment were in Cairo in December 1918.

http://www.bedfordregiment.org.uk/5thbn/5thbtn1918diary.html

Neil

[Stebie9173]

In very basic terms 54th Division, with whom the 1/10th London Regiment served, served in:

• Gallipoli - August to December 1915
• Cairo area - January 1916 to March 1916
• Suez Canal defences - March 1916 to February 1917
• Advance across the western edge of the Sinai desert - February to March 1917
• 1st Battle of Gaza - March 1917
• 2nd Battle of Gaza - April 1917
• 3rd Battle of Gaza - November 1917
• 1918 - Advance through Palestine and into Syria
• After the Armistice (31-10-1918 with the Turks) they returned to Egypt, again to the Cairo area

The Theatre of War Codes changed in 1916. 4a is Egypt at that stage (co-inciding with the rebuilding phase of the Division around Cairo) and the 4b is Egypt/Palestine. So 4a and 4b are in the right location at that time and not in the African interior.

http://www.1914-1918.net/soldiers/theatrecodes.html

10th London Regiment were issued numbers 420000 to 450000 in March 1917, so both 330/420123 and 1879/420842 are consistent with the battalion. The latter, for age reasons as mentioned above, seems more likely to be a fit.

Note that the (1879) mentioned above was his original number (there was a renumbering exercise in 1917 hence two numbers) not his year of birth.

162nd Brigade had a major exposure to malaria in October 1918 after camping on malaria infested (is that the right word) ground - my own great-uncle (in the Division artillery - was evacuated at that point and also suffered repeat bouts of malaria.

If he was cut-off on Gallipoli then the battle of Kiretch Tepe is favourite:

http://www.bedfordregiment.org.uk/5thbn/5thbtnkiretchbattle1915.html

Steve.

[Timble]

I've got another three possibles:

Private James Martin 2135 680723 London regiment

Private James martin 3547, 631377 London Regiment Medal Card WO372/13/146164

Lance Corporal, Corporal James Martin 2147, 653441, 7004

I think these are all at The National Archives at Kew WO372

I wouldn't have believed how many James Martins were in the London Regiments. I haven't located their MICs yet, but I did read a blog saying that the 1/10th were renumbered from 420001 to 450000,which might scupper these ones as well

Neil, Thanks for the link to the 5th Bn Bedfordshire Regiment, it will make fascinating reading

Thanks again

Tim

[Stebie9173]

This is from the casualty lists published in the Times - this dates from the issue of 30 September 1915 and lists men reported as Wounded.

There is a list further up the page shows men Killed in Action which when cross-referenced to CWGC suggests that these men were wounded during the battle at Kiretch Tepe.

No. 1879 James Martin would have enlisted about Sep/Oct 1914. This man appears to tick all the boxes so far.

Steve.

[johnboy]

On a Labour Company Medal Roll there is a James Victor Martin shown as Royal Fusiliers SN 35748 and Labour Corps no 476611.

This was also shown in post #4.

This seems to be the only record that shows his full name.

[michaeldr]

John,

I also think that a transfer from the RF to Labour Co & ASC would also tie in with his knee wound

which probably made him unfit for the infantry

regards

Michael

[headgardener]

The medal roll for 1879 Pte James Martin should show the theatres that he served in and it might also show a gap corresponding with a period in hospital (maybe Malta, or the UK?).

Then there's also the James Victor Martin who served with the RF. The regiment is inconsistent with the family history of him serving in the 10/Londons, and his service number indicates that he joined the RF in about 1917. Maybe a search of adjacent service numbers could establish which battalion he belonged to. The only RF battalions that served in Egypt that I can think of Off the top of my head are the Jewish battalions. Maybe there were others?

[johnboy]

Tim. do you have his date or year of birth? In the picture you have does it show him in uniform and are any badges shown?

[johnboy]

The only RF battalions that served in Egypt that I can think of Off the top of my head are the Jewish battalions. Maybe there were others?

2nd and 3rd RF.

[johnboy]

The only reference to Hackney Gurkhas I have found relates to WW2.

Second World War

The 5th Battalion, nicknamed the "Hackney Gurkhas", took part in the Normandy Landings, landing on Juno beach in support of Canadian troops.

[Langdon]

The Theatre of War Codes changed in 1916. 4a is Egypt at that stage (co-inciding with the rebuilding phase of the Division around Cairo) and the 4b is Egypt/Palestine. So 4a and 4b are in the right location at that time and not in the African interior.

Steve - thanks for correcting this - I was wondering why the history of the 10th in LLT stopped in Egypt!

Mike

[johnboy]

Does 34 Oswald Street Clapham Park ring any bells?

[Stebie9173]

There has been someone on this Forum who specialised in the 10th Londons. He goes by the Forum name of "Hackney Gurkha".... James hasn't been on the Forum for a few months though.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=127611&hl=

For me 1879 James Martin appears to be the front-runner. Here is what can be gleaned of his army career:

• Enlisted around the end of September 1914
• Posted to 10th Battalion London Regiment (Hackney Rifles)
• Trained at Crowborough, Norwich and St Albans with 162nd Brigade of 54th Division
• Embarked to Gallipoli aboard s.s. Aquitania at Liverpool on 29 July 1915
• The Aquitania reached Mudros on August 5th 1915
• Medal roll shows first day in Theatre of War 3a. Balkans as being 6 August 1915
• The battalion were transferred in smaller vessels and then were taken on to Gallipoli peninsula and landed at SuvIa Bay on 10th August 1915
• Medal card shows arrival as 10th August 1915
• He was apparently involved in, and wounded at, the battle of Kiretch Tepe on 15/16 August 1915 (Times Casualty List 30-9-1915)
• If severely wounded would then have been evacuated to a hospital away from the peninsula and taken to one of the large hospitals in the region - usually at Alexandria or Malta
• The 1/10th London Regiment was evacuated with the rest of the British forces in December 1915
• 1879 James Martin's medal roll shows leaving Theatre of War 3b Balkans on 13 December 1915
• 1879 James Martin's medal roll shows arrival Theatre of War 4a. Egypt on 18 December 1915
• Training and reinforcement took place in Egypt over the next three months
• 1879 James Martin's medal roll shows leaving Theatre of War 4a. Egypt Balkans on 18 March 1916
• 1879 James Martin's medal roll shows arrival Theatre of War 4b. Egypt on 19 March 1916
• In March 1917 he was renumbered with No. 420842 in the series belonging to the 10th Londons.
• 1879 James Martin's medal roll shows leaving Theatre of War 4b. Egypt/Palestine on 13 June 1919

Steve.