andy 1 Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 can anybody tell me when the royal field artillery where formed,also anything else about them. also would the regiment number 197 mean that this soldier was an early member of this regiment. thanks andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 The Royal Regiment Of Artillery,One of The Oldest Regiments In The British Army Split into Two seperate Units: "The Royal Horse & Field Artillery" {The RHA {Raised 1793}Maintained its Own seperate identity within that title}& "The Royal Garrison Artillery" in June 1899.[These Two units re~united again as RRA in June 1924] Your Number "197" would probably indicate he was a pre~war Member of a Territorial Force Battery,& he may well have a later 6 Figure Number[after 1916,if still serving then]Regular Gunners of this period [1914] would generally have a 4/5 Figure Number,in the Mid Thousands,upwards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KONDOA Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 Hi Andy, His number would depend which battery he was with. 197 is relatively low but some new army RGA batteries were using this number system after the outbreak of war. Again depending upon battery and date of formation the number is irrelevant as many men could have enlisted one day as was often the case. Which battery are you researching. Roop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy 1 Posted 9 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 9 November , 2004 i am not researching any battery in particular. its just that i have looked at the medal index card for a member of my family and it said this. r f a reg no 197 fleshbourne w gunner awarded the t f e medal date of army order 185 1-7-11 can you tell me what the initials t f e stand for,and what was it awarded for. thanks andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KONDOA Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 I believe its the Territorial Force Medal which is explained Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy 1 Posted 9 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 9 November , 2004 so it doen't mean that the medal was awarded in 1911 then. andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KONDOA Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 No andy, sorry I didnt clarify earlier. TFE is Terratorial Force Entitlement which is also most probably his date of enlistment. The entitlement was earned by 4 years service with the TF where no other of the two stars was awarded ie. 1914 or 1914 -15. Thus he served overseas but not in the qualifying periods for these latter stars but having completed 4 years service in the TF before Nov 1918. The award would most probably be in 1920 or as late as 1922 as to qualify Nov 1918 had to have passed. I hope this is clear Roop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy 1 Posted 9 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 9 November , 2004 thanks roop. does this make any sense to you i assume the w means walter. my great uncle he was born in 1895,so if he enlisted in 1911 in the territorials as a gunner. then in the first world war he joined the lincolnshire regiment where he was transferred to the queens royal west surreys and served overseas. he would have been awarded the t f e medal. please see my signature for walters details. andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KONDOA Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 Hi Andy, Lot of Yellowbellies in your signiture, are you from the county??? A "Gunner" in the artillery is of similar rank to a private in an infantry regiment ie its a base rank. Given that at the outbreak of war and the need for new infantry battalions it is highly likely he was tempted by overseas service and signed up accordingly. The possible date of going overseas suggested by the TF medal would be around 1916 which would tie in conveniently with new army mobilisations.To have 4 years TF entitlement would see your man in the TF up to July 1915. Depending which Battalion he was in would depend on when he went overseas. If he didnt go with the Lincolns but went with the QRWS then one has to look to one of the Service or Reserve Battalions of the Lincolns. However, I would expect him to have gone overseas earlier than that given his TF background. There are one or two Lincolns buffs on forum who no doubt can give a far more accurate choice of possibilities. Roop (Lincoln) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy 1 Posted 9 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 9 November , 2004 born and bred and will die a yellowbelly roop. from what i can gather from some of my other questions on this forum my great uncle could have gone overseas in 1916 with the 2/4 queens royal west surreys.he was in the transport section of the queens. it just came as a suprise to find on the mic that he had been in the rfa,because he was born in louth lincolnshire i automatically assumed he enlisted in the lincolns first and was then transferred to the queens.not for one minute did i ever dream he could have been a territorial. does anybody know if the royal field artillery had a T A unit in lincolnshire around 1911. thanks andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KONDOA Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 Andy, 230 Brigade RFA was a pre war formation which had batteries from Louth, Grimsby and Boston. See LLT Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy 1 Posted 9 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 9 November , 2004 thanks for that roop most interesting. i still wonder why he joined the lincolns though and didn't rejoin the r f a. if only i'd asked him when i saw him all those years ago early 1960's. and its strange that that brigade were in the battle of loos and the hohenzoller redoubt.and now that redoubt is being used as a rubbish dump. and we have got a thread about it on this forum. i also see that on another thread you state that you live 400 yards from christs hospital school, would that be on wragby road then. andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KONDOA Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 Hi Andy, I,m on Gr--tw-ll Ro-d. It may well be that your man joined with his friends which was a common phenomena or he went into the training reserve being an experienced man. Have you tried for his SR??? Unfortunately for the old battlefields the needs of the current population are becoming paramount. It will need significant intervention to preserve what remains of what is "ours" . Roop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy 1 Posted 9 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 9 November , 2004 no i haven't tried for his S R roop i tried for one of my other relatives once,but was told they were destroyed in 1940 when the germans bombed london.so i assumed his records must have been destroyed as well. andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KONDOA Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 Dont build your hopes up, but assume nothing and check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 so it doen't mean that the medal was awarded in 1911 then. Territorial Force Efficiency Medal.1908~1920 No,The Notification on the Index Card DOES mean that he was awarded the TFEM in A/O of 1st July 1911{he would have earned it Partly for service with the Pre 1908 Volunteer Force which became the Territorial Force in 1908 under the Haldane Reforms}for a total of 12 Years service attending a Camp each year for those Years & the required number of Training Sessions.No doubt he also earned WW1 Campaign Medals these may have been awarded under a different number,it might be worth checking for a Further Card of his name that may or may not include the "197" Number. A Quick check gives him, as you say,as Walter in the Lincolnshire Regiment & Queen's R;The Lincolnshire's Number is a "Derby" Scheme Number from around 1916[or @ least a late enlistment for a Volunteer,He would have been of some age by 1916{Remember he was awarded the TFEM in 1911 for 12 Years Service,which takes you back to 1900 for his initial Enlistment into the Volunteers @ say 18~22 Years of age,so would have been in his mid to late 30s by the time he enlisted or was Drafted in 1916 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 No andy, sorry I didnt clarify earlier. TFE is Terratorial Force Entitlement which is also most probably his date of enlistment. The entitlement was earned by 4 years service with the TF where no other of the two stars was awarded ie. 1914 or 1914 -15. Thus he served overseas but not in the qualifying periods for these latter stars but having completed 4 years service in the TF before Nov 1918. The award would most probably be in 1920 or as late as 1922 as to qualify Nov 1918 had to have passed. I hope this is clear Roop Hello Roop?;I think you are referring to ther Territorial Force WAR Medal here,Not the TFEM [Territorial Force EFFICIENCY Medal]which was a Long Service Award[12 Years/War Service Counted Double]Sorry!HB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KONDOA Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 Roger, If our man was born 1895 would he not be rather young for TF service prior to 1911 or am I missing something??? Roop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KONDOA Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 OK Roger, just the query above re age?? Roop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KONDOA Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 OK Roger, just the query above re age?? Quick edit here. I see! "war years count double"" Answered. Roop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 OK Roger, just the query above re age?? Quick edit here. I see! "war years count double"" Answered. Roop Not really as the Medal was awarded in 1911 [so the War Service counting "Double" Aspect would not apply so he would have had to enlist into the Volunteers/TF in around 1898/1900,I think you may be looking @: Two Seperate Men?,Perhaps his Dad/Cousin/Uncle was a Prewar Terrier?[who didnt then serve in WW1,or @ least didnt serve Overseas & qualify for Campaign Medals~ Not Every one did remember,Curioser & Curioser?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KONDOA Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 Two Seperate Men? A good observation there Roger, hadnt considered that and wasnt likely to without understanding TF Efficiency criteria. Roop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KONDOA Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 Curioser & Curioser?? 1901 Census doesnt help, 4 in the whole country age 0 - 50 -100 Walter Fleshbourne 5 Lincs Louth Lincoln Lindsey Louth George Fleshbourne 10 Lincs Grimsby Grimsby Lincolnshire Gt Grimsby John Fleshbourne 29 Lough Lincs Southampton Fareham Barman George Fleshbourne 38 Scotland Glanmorgan Grimsby Lincolnshire Gt Grimsby Blacksmith I give up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 Hi Just to add my wild stab in the dark comment. I would suspect given the Louth connection, the possible Lincs territorial connection and the from the RFA number 197 that walter would have been a pre war member of the 3rd Battery, 1st North Midland Brigade, RFA. At least this is the name given to the unit in the local Louth paper at the time. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KONDOA Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 Thats good Chris. The problem raised as you can see is if we are dealing with one Walter or two Walters?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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