Three Line Shoulder Titles - Gordon Highlanders

[Shiny]

Hi All,

I've made a display for a Gordon Highlander I've been researching which includes a shoulder title.

I have a single curved line which has Gordons on it but I've seen photos of a three line one that has T on the top, 5 on the second line then Gordon's on the bottom.

As my soldier was in the 5th Bn should I have the three line one in the display (if I can find one)?

Thanks for the help,

Michael

[johnboy]

According to LLT 2/5th [buchanan and Formartin] Btn was known as 5th Btn until 1/1/16. Seems it did not go overseas.

So I would think the 3 liner is the one.

[Shiny]

Thanks Johnboy,

My guy started in the 1st Bn then moved into the 1/5th and died in France though so he definitely went overseas.

Just wondering if anyone knows the story behind the two different styles, was it a date thing?

Thanks,

Michael

[johnboy]

If you have found his Medal Index Card can you post a link to it?

[4thGordons]

There seems to be some confusion here:

the 1/5th Gordons certainly DID go overseas. (see Carolyn's site here) they were a Territorial battalion (Buchan and Formartin)

the 2/5th were the feeder unit which stayed at home.

If your single line shoulder title reads GORDONS (with an S) then it is a post 1922 title. During the war the title (both 1 line and 3 line) read GORDON (no S)

As to your question this is something I have puzzled and never discovered a definitive answer to

The 3 line T(erritorial) - 5(number/battalion) - Gordon(Regiment) was certainly virtually universal pre war and I think all the photos I have seen of TF battalions at Bedford in 1914/early15 show this title.

Regular battalions (1st and 2nd) wore the 1 line Gordon title

However it appears that at some point the 3 line titles were phased out and replaced with the 1 line title in all battalions including the TF - at least later war pictures of TF battalions in theatre appear to show one line titles. Precisely when, and under what authority this happened I have not discovered but my best guess is sometime mid 1916 just based on looking at photos.

For your display - if your chap started in the First battalion one line "Gordon" would be correct and, if he transferred to the 1/5th later on I would say that would do for both. If, for display purposes you wanted to show the three line title it makes a nice comparison - but they are a lot harder to find -- and pricey!

Chris

[johnboy]

Were they also known as 5th Btn?

I gave details from LLT as it said 2/5th were known as 5th Btn.

1/5th did go overseas .

How common would it have been for a man to start with a regular army battalion and transfer to a TF?

[4thGordons]

Were they also known as 5th Btn?

I gave details from LLT as it said 2/5th were known as 5th Btn.

1/5th did go overseas .

How common would it have been for a man to start with a regular army battalion and transfer to a TF?

Known by whom? I suppose is the question.

In brigade and divisional diaries the TF battalions are usually referred to as "5th Gordons" etc even though their official designation was 1/5 (first-fifth) so I suppose the answer is yes, the 1/5th Bn was referred to as the 5th.

See this page from their own war diary.

(Original document copyright: National Archives, photo by me)

As to the frequency of transfer between regular battalions and TF battalions - I don't really know, but by 1917 men appear to have been sent wherever they were needed, in particular after battalions suffered heavy casualties. This led to some loss of the regional identity of battalions and I have certainly seen plenty of transfers between regular and TF battalions but I couldn't really estimate how common it was. After a couple of years of losses and the introduction of conscription I suspect the differences between "regular" battalions and Territorial or Service battalions was, to most practical intents and purposes, minimal. The "Traditions" and "pride" of the regular battalions were probably maintained but I am not sure that would have been an obstacle to transferring men in case of need.

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

There seems to be some confusion here:

the 1/5th Gordons certainly DID go overseas. (see Carolyn's site here) they were a Territorial battalion (Buchan and Formartin)

the 2/5th were the feeder unit which stayed at home.

If your single line shoulder title reads GORDONS (with an S) then it is a post 1922 title. During the war the title (both 1 line and 3 line) read GORDON (no S)

As to your question this is something I have puzzled and never discovered a definitive answer to

The 3 line T(erritorial) - 5(number/battalion) - Gordon(Regiment) was certainly virtually universal pre war and I think all the photos I have seen of TF battalions at Bedford in 1914/early15 show this title.

Regular battalions (1st and 2nd) wore the 1 line Gordon title

However it appears that at some point the 3 line titles were phased out and replaced with the 1 line title in all battalions including the TF - at least later war pictures of TF battalions in theatre appear to show one line titles. Precisely when, and under what authority this happened I have not discovered but my best guess is sometime mid 1916 just based on looking at photos.

For your display - if your chap started in the First battalion one line "Gordon" would be correct and, if he transferred to the 1/5th later on I would say that would do for both. If, for display purposes you wanted to show the three line title it makes a nice comparison - but they are a lot harder to find -- and pricey!

Chris

My understanding is that it was some time after the introduction of compulsory military service (aka 'conscription') in 1916, Chris. At some point in that year the decision was taken that for practical reasons there would no longer be any difference between the regular, service and TF battalions, other than in title, and that all would receive men (battle casualty replacements) from the same pool at the infantry base depots. After that point it made sense from a simplicity of supply viewpoint to issue standardised STs, where that was possible. Units like the London Regt continued to be differentiated, albeit increasingly with worsted cloth titles.

[4thGordons]

That would mirror my own thinking, Frogsmile.

I would be interested in seeing if it was ever enshrined in regulations in any way but what you have described certainly matches my understanding and approximate time-line.

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

That would mirror my own thinking, Frogsmile.

I would be interested in seeing if it was ever enshrined in regulations in any way but what you have described certainly matches my understanding and approximate time-line.

Chris

I think there would certainly have been a formal order, the supply chain would have required it and so would the routine orders for the Army in the field, as well as the Territorial Associations back at home.

[Shiny]

Hi All,

Thank you everyone for the help, it seems I may have opened a can of worms here.

I have got his MIC and the roll. All it states is that he was in the 1st Gordon Hdrs then 5th Gordon Hdrs, it doesn't have dates.

I have been in contact with Carolyn who thinks going off his number he may have been transferred into the 5th Bn after the battle of High Wood in 1916 which would coincide (give or take) with his training finishing.

The photo I have of him (my avatar) isn't really clear enough, it looks like it is just the Gordon title but I'm guessing from what I have read about uniform and kit shortages it may have been uniform he was given for the photo during training and then taken off him again.

I'm attaching a picture of the display that I have made, as Frogsmile pointed out it is Gordon, rather than Gordons. It would be nice to have both depending on the cost but only if he would have worn that.

Thanks again for the help, it would be interesting to know.

Michael

[4thGordons]

Very nice display.

What are the coins (?) medallions (?) on the lower right-hand side?

One observation: He is dressed almost identically to my avatar (except my great grandfather has a simplified jacket) - but both jackets have an untailored front skirt and both men are wearing a pattern 14 equipment belt. My picture dates from between Sept 1914 and Feb 1915 and was taken in Bedford (I need to check the original to see if the prop column is the same!)

Chris

Edit: I checked - the plinth may be different - different embossed motive on the front face - although it could be just turned through 90 degrees as it looks as though there is a diamond shape on the side of yours which is what is on the front face in my pic. In other respects the pictures are very similar. If not the same photographer then an almost identical set up backdrop/plinth etc taken from a slightly different angle, location of negative number is also the same.

Points of similarity arrowed.

[Shiny]

Hi Chris,

They are extremely similar photos, mine has a photographers name stamped at the bottom of the column which quite clearly shows an address in Ripon but the backdrop, fence etc looks identical and I agree about the column being turned as well. I wonder if this was some sort of travelling photographer who moved around the various recruit training centres.

The coins in my display are school attendance medals, one per year for going to primary school and one of them is even hallmarked! They all have his name engraved in them as well. I have photographed the reverse of them and then stuck the photos next to the mounted originals.