AIF WW1 uniform?

[Sculls]

We believe that this man served in the AIF WW1.

Can anyone identify the uniform.

Thank you.

[Greg]

It is AIF. The only way of telling units is by using the colour patch- the AIF did not use regimental badges all units just wore the 'Rising Sun' badge. These are not visible although there may be one just above the corporal's stripes. Not sure what the 'white' object on his left shoulder is . I think he is wearing the second pattern AIF tunic but no doubt others more expert will be along soon. It looks as if he has polished the bronzed badges and wears them in a 'fashionable' style.

Greg

[Sculls]

Thanks Greg.

The picture of the man, who we are hoping is him, attained the rank of Lance Corporal.

He served in May 1917 Reinforcements, Field Company Engineers, transferring to the 1st Army Troops Company, Australian Engineers on 8 Feb 1918.

Yes, the 'white' object on his left shoulder is rather strange.

Sculls

[bigjohn]

He is a corporal in the picture two stripes.

John

[Sculls]

Thanks John.

Any idea what the whitish piece of material hanging off his left shoulder could be and/or signify?

[Sculls]

Just studying the photo again, it seems to me that he is wearing a false 'right hand'

So the material hanging off his left shoulder, would that be related to this?

[FROGSMILE]

Just studying the photo again, it seems to me that he is wearing a false 'right hand'

So the material hanging off his left shoulder, would that be related to this?

I dont think it is a false hand, he is dressed for mounted duty in riding breeches and 'stohwasser' gaiters and carrying a riding whip. The thong of the whip is wrapped around his hand and gives it an odd look at first glance (that is not helped by sleeves that are too short). As a mounted duty engineer he is likely to have been either, part of a pontoon bridging unit, or a signals, line laying unit. If the latter, perhaps the white cloth at his shoulder is part of a crude blue and white signals branch designator in the form of a streamer.

The Australian style of jacket was unique and much more expensive to make than its British equivalent due to the bellowed Pockets to increase carrying capacity. It was one of the first true combat jackets of a type that would later become common, and well ahead of its time. Like all such jackets, it had its origins in the 'Norfolk' style shooting jacket.

[Sculls]

Many thanks Forgsmile your very detailed response, appreciated.

Unfortunately, as the two stripes designate he was a Corporal, and not a Lance Corporal, unfortunately we unable to confirm it is our man,

L/Cpl Edward Rupert Brown service # 18613

Sadly, he returned home as a 'cot case' (tuberculosis) in August 1919 and died in June 1920

Sculls

[FROGSMILE]

Many thanks Forgsmile your very detailed response, appreciated.

Unfortunately, as the two stripes designate he was a Corporal, and not a Lance Corporal, unfortunately we unable to confirm it is our man,

L/Cpl Edward Rupert Brown service # 18613

Sadly, he returned home as a 'cot case' (tuberculosis) in August 1919 and died in June 1920

Sculls

Don't rule him out just yet. It is quiet conceivable that he is an acting corporal. Lance Corporal was not a substantive rank but an appointment, i.e. a probationary position, rather like a 'trusty' in some walks of life at that time. If he was a good man then he might have been made acting corporal and been given another stripe as a temporary position. In such circumstances he would still have listed himself as a Lance Corporal, or even Sapper (as that was his 'substantive' rank).

[green_acorn]

According to his file he was appointed as an Acting Corporal on 13 Nov 17 whist he was with the "Engineer Details" for the duration of his course at the School of Military Engineering Class at the RE School of Instruction, where he qualified as a 1st Class Instructor. Edward reverted to Sapper on 17 Jan 18. He was transferred to the 1st Army Troops Coy, Aust Engineers on 8 Feb 1918, he disembarked at Le Havre on the same day. He was later appointed to Lance Corporal on 2 March 1919. He was diagnosed with TB on 16 June 1919 and died on 24 June 1920 at Woodville Red Cross Home, Randwick, NSW.

Cheers,

Hendo

[green_acorn]

By the way the flashes on the left shoulder may be a class/trainee identifier

[FROGSMILE]

By the way the flashes on the left shoulder may be a class/trainee identifier

Both posts very useful Hendo, thanks for posting.

[Sculls]

Many thanks everyone for your invaluable help - it is very much appreciated.

I am hoping to obtain a photo of Edward in civvies which I will post for comparison.

Thanks again,

Sculls

[Sculls]

Attached photo that we know is Edward, in civvies. Unfortunately it not known what year this was taken though would suspect prior to enlistment.

The photo of the chap in uniform looks quite young, Edward was 35 when he enlisted in 1917.

[FROGSMILE]

Attached photo that we know is Edward, in civvies. Unfortunately it not known what year this was taken though would suspect prior to enlistment.

The photo of the chap in uniform looks quite young, Edward was 35 when he enlisted in 1917.

There is a resemblance, the ears certainly look similar, but the man in uniform seems slimmer. Perhaps he had last weight and grown his hair a little. It is hard to be sure, especially as the rank and uniform seem to fit with what you know of his service. I do not have my reference material concerning AIF badges with me and cannot recall what the engineers wore. All that said the young man in uniform does not look 35 to my eyes.

[Waddell]

AIF engineers wore purple coloured shoulder patches of various shapes.

Scott

[FROGSMILE]

AIF engineers wore purple coloured shoulder patches of various shapes.

Scott

Thank you, but I meant the cap badge Scott?

[grantsmil]

My impression of the photograph is that it may have been taken early in the War, possibly before the introduction of the colour patch system. I have seen images of soldier wearing coloured ribbons in the same fashion,

However, this jacket is one of the strangest ones I have ever seen. If someone presented this jacket to me today, it would be hard to convince myself it was not a poor attempt by someone at making a copy of a 1914 AIF service dress jacket.

[Sculls]

Thanks to all for your responses.

A thought from 'left field', could the photo possibly be of a Mr Brown who served, with the Australian forces, in the Boer War?

Ive check NAA but no Edward Brown's listed.

If this is a possibility, will need to trace if Edward had brothers.

PS: Edward had tried to enlist WW1 but was initially knocked back having flat feet.

My dear dad, with very flat feet, served in WW2 and up until his passing just a few months aged 94, had terrible problems with his feet but like all from that era, just got on with it.

[green_acorn]

There is a resemblance, the ears certainly look similar, but the man in uniform seems slimmer. ........

I do not have my reference material concerning AIF badges with me and cannot recall what the engineers wore. ...............

Sculls,

if you "letterbox" key features (cover everything else) to look at, and compare, them in isolation, I think the similarities, or otherwise, will be more obvious.

The 1st AIF wore the Rising Sun and curved "Australia" shoulder titles, irrespective of Corps and Regiment.

The image does not fit the Boer War era, where there was no "standard" Australian uniform. It is WW1 era, even if the jacket is too small for him.

As a 1917 engineer reinforcement it doesn't surprise me that he is not wearing a colour patch in the uniformed studio portrait. He was a trainee and wasn't yet in a unit that was entitled to wear one.

I would note that the information at his NAA file in 1920 gives him the post nominal reference of A.M.C., which I take to mean (Australian) "Army Medical Corps".

Cheers,

Hendo

[grantsmil]

The wearing of the ribbon on the right sleeve is something that appears to be short lived. It also is suspected to have occurred in Australia and in 1914 and 1915 (possibly even as late as early 1916). Hopefully this will assist in narrowing down when the image was taken.

Hopefully someone may find a reference to when this practice was adopted and ceased.

[Chris Henschke]

The wearing of the ribbon on the right sleeve is something that appears to be short lived. It also is suspected to have occurred in Australia and in 1914 and 1915 (possibly even as late as early 1916). Hopefully this will assist in narrowing down when the image was taken.

Hopefully someone may find a reference to when this practice was adopted and ceased.

Very Helpful. Do you have any information about wearing ribbons on the LEFT sleeve?

[grantsmil]

Oops,

my mistake. Yes should read as left not right.

... and most cleverly as I was researching through a 1Tb hard-drive on information and images on the subject, I damaged the drive and managed to lose the lot.

[green_acorn]

Sculls,

If you look closely at his WW1 studio portrait you will notice the ribbon is secured further up the epaulette by his curved "Australia" shoulder title.

Cheers,

Hendo

[grantsmil]

Yes the fixing of the ribbons is usually seen under the curved "Australia" shoulder title