AIF WW1 uniform?

[Sculls]

Thank you all for your assistance and perseverance trying to solve if the photo is E. R. Brown service # 18613

Grant - as Edward did not enlist until March 1917, your findings obviously now rules out that the photo is of him.

Thanks again to all.

Sculls

[green_acorn]

Thank you all for your assistance and perseverance trying to solve if the photo is E. R. Brown service # 18613

Grant - as Edward did not enlist until March 1917, your findings obviously now rules out that the photo is of him.

Thanks again to all.

Sculls

Sculls,

I would not be so quick to judge that the image is not of him. We in the antipodes must remember those British training establishments were dealing with many thousands of trainees at any one time on a continuing basis. That the ribbons may, or may not, have been used in Australia much past 1915 does not mean they were not used at the much larger training schools in the UK. Indeed I would imagine the staff at those schools wanted ways to identify students temporarily promoted. It is the same reason why brassards were so prevalent at the time. The simple fact is a Temporary Corporal for the purpose of training probably meant they were not included as an authorised Non Commissioned Officer in that training establishments Routine Orders for the purpose of preferring disciplinary (and other) charges - a very important distinction.

I would also add that the concept of identifying trainees is still common today, note the white gorget patches of Officer Cadets in the UK, Australia and I presume the other Commonwealth countries. The RAAF, and I presume the RAF, had a long practice of temporarily promoting individuals whilst they were on course. Whilst they were temporarily promoted the individual wore, in Australia (from memory) a white background to their rank, for similar reasons to that I described earlier.

Cheers,

Hendo

[FROGSMILE]

Very interesting, I had never heard of these ribbons until now, thank you for posting. Were they in regimental colours or just intended to show the function concerned? Is there a list of the variations and how they were coloured?

[Chasemuseum]

Yes the fixing of the ribbons is usually seen under the curved "Australia" shoulder title

His service record should give you some useful information. In this photo he has an "INF" badge on his shoulder strap denoting his still being assigned as infantry. Immediately above this there appears to be a battalion numeral. This is an early war practice and the use of these badges by the AIF was discontinued about mid 1915 with the introduction of colour patches.

Stousser leggings were used by anyone who was mounted such as drivers (riders on a team of horses pulling a wagon or limber) and were general issue for AIF artillery, engineers and service corps. Within an infantry battalion this would only be the drivers for company vehicles.

The tunic is typical of some of the variations of AIF service dress tunic. Note the knap of the tunic, this is one of the very soft woolly ones. Surviving examples f these are less common tunics as they were a popular well made tunic. Our museum has one in the collection, maker dated 1916, modified by the soldier to remove the buckle and tab and unfortunately modified in the 1970s to replace the original buttons with metal map of Australia buttons "to make it look more WW1".

Cheers

RT

[FROGSMILE]

His service record should give you some useful information. In this photo he has an "INF" badge on his shoulder strap denoting his still being assigned as infantry. Immediately above this there appears to be a battalion numeral. This is an early war practice and the use of these badges by the AIF was discontinued about mid 1915 with the introduction of colour patches.

Stousser leggings were used by anyone who was mounted such as drivers (riders on a team of horses pulling a wagon or limber) and were general issue for AIF artillery, engineers and service corps. Within an infantry battalion this would only be the drivers for company vehicles.

The tunic is typical of some of the variations of AIF service dress tunic. Note the knap of the tunic, this is one of the very soft woolly ones. Surviving examples f these are less common tunics as they were a popular well made tunic. Our museum has one in the collection, maker dated 1916, modified by the soldier to remove the buckle and tab and unfortunately modified in the 1970s to replace the original buttons with metal map of Australia buttons "to make it look more WW1".

Cheers

RT

Very interesting RT, thanks for posting. The leather leggings were "Stohwasser" rather than stousser and had been popular in the 2nd Boer War. Apparently when WW1 broke out the man who owned the Stohwasser patent worked assiduously to get the Australian government to purchase a contract for his leggings. I understand that this was very profitable for him.

[Chasemuseum]

Hi Frogsmile,

My apologies "Stohwasser", yes my spelling is always terrible, without spell check I am lost.

Also, we have a WW1 AIF major's uniform with an interesting variation of the leggings, with two leather straps starting at the centre of the legging, one spiralling up, the other down. He was an officer of Engineers, and I have only seen this type in photos of officers engineers. Of course I cannot find a photo now.

Cheers

RT

[Sculls]

Thank you again one-and-all.

We have transcribed Edward's war service record in full but a summary follows:

BROWN, Edward Rupert # 18613

May 1917 Reinforcements, Field Company Engineers, t/f to 1st Army Troops Co., Australian Engineers 8 Feb 1918

- Enlisted Mar 1917, promoted to Lance Corporal, left Sydney 8 Aug 1917 on HMAT Anchises for England

- Arr Liverpool 2 Oct. Undertook 3 months training at No 3 camp Parkhouse, Wiltshire then Royal Engineers School of Instruction Brightlingsea. Qualified as 1st Class Instructor, received excellent rating for his practical work. L/Cpl Brown reverted to Sapper whilst undertaking courses.

- End Jan 1918 to Australian Divisional Base Depot Rouelles then t/f to Army Troops Co in Flanders

- End Apr 1918 admitted hospital two day. Rejoined unit in France. Dec 1918 leave to London.

- Early Mar 1919 reappointed L/Cpl, two months later shipped back to England from France

- mid-Jun 1919 admitted 1st Australian General Hospital with TB. Health deteriorated. Returned home late August on the 'Kanowna' as a cot case

- Died Woodville Red Cross Hospital Randwick (Sydney) eight months later.

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you again one-and-all.

We have transcribed Edward's war service record in full but a summary follows:

BROWN, Edward Rupert # 18613

May 1917 Reinforcements, Field Company Engineers, t/f to 1st Army Troops Co., Australian Engineers 8 Feb 1918

- Enlisted Mar 1917, promoted to Lance Corporal, left Sydney 8 Aug 1917 on HMAT Anchises for England

- Arr Liverpool 2 Oct. Undertook 3 months training at No 3 camp Parkhouse, Wiltshire then Royal Engineers School of Instruction Brightlingsea. Qualified as 1st Class Instructor, received excellent rating for his practical work. L/Cpl Brown reverted to Sapper whilst undertaking courses.

- End Jan 1918 to Australian Divisional Base Depot Rouelles then t/f to Army Troops Co in Flanders

- End Apr 1918 admitted hospital two day. Rejoined unit in France. Dec 1918 leave to London.

- Early Mar 1919 reappointed L/Cpl, two months later shipped back to England from France

- mid-Jun 1919 admitted 1st Australian General Hospital with TB. Health deteriorated. Returned home late August on the 'Kanowna' as a cot case

- Died Woodville Red Cross Hospital Randwick (Sydney) eight months later.

That is a good resume, although for the sake of clarity and consistency I would suggest you use the word 'appointed' for his elevation to Lance Corporal.

[Sculls]

Thanks Forgsmile for clarification of wording. As you may have guessed, we are 'newbies' to researching military records, etc.

Sculls

[Sculls]

Hi,

To add: writing up E R Brown's service record, along with other men we are researching, wondering if someone could clarify a few points, thanks.

(This maybe the wrong area to ask these questions, if so, apologises)

- when referring to say, 1st Battalion, or 3rd Brigade etc., in that case you use a capital "B". But if saying, " ... and the battalion moved into the sector of ..." or "..... the battalion he was stationed with ...." is these cases do you use a 'small b' or 'capital B'

- also for rank, do you write say Private or private, etc., We have been using capitals.

Have looked at a number of books written on military history and they give conflicting usages.

Many thanks Sculls

[WhiteStarLine]

Sculls, to give you my (in)expert opinion:

When used as a title, capitalise it, otherwise in lower case. "Brown marched out of recruit camp and was now a private in the Australian Army. Now known as Private Brown, he caught the train to join his battalion, the 41st Battalion. ..."

[Sculls]

Sculls, to give you my (in)expert opinion:

When used as a title, capitalise it, otherwise in lower case. "Brown marched out of recruit camp and was now a private in the Australian Army. Now known as Private Brown, he caught the train to join his battalion, the 41st Battalion. ..."

Our (in)expert thoughts are along the same lines.

However, as said, we have looked at military books and there is conflicting usages.

We have been trying to work out where on the forum we could post our query. Any idea?

Feel sure that there would be an ex-military person who would know the protocol.

Thanks your response

Sculls

[UKAIF]

I've consulted some well informed chums in Australia and this evens baffles them.

Best suggestion is that ribbon may be unit or reinforcement colours (as per a banner or colours presented to the draft), guessing that he has not yet formally joined his unit and is possibly around the time that unit colours are not yet even formalised. If he was in training prior to leaving for overseas, he may well have had (as some soldiers did have) the INF shoulder title plus his battalion number in metal figures above that as seems the case here. The unit colour patch when issued became the primary recognition 'badge'.

[UKAIF]

Sculls - the convention is/should be:

If you refer to Pte Bloggs then it is a capital letter P.

If you say "a captain went out into no man's land..." then it is a lower case c.

If you say " the brigade advanced..." then lower case b again.

If you say "184th Brigade repulsed the enemy" then upper case B.

Extending the subject, there's also the correct use of CO and OC.

Certainly you do find variations and inconsistencies. Journals that regularly publish research ideally should have preferred terminology - I tend to use the style used at the time (1914-18) as well as place names as they were (Ypres not Ieper). Also, imperial measurements - "the battalion advanced 50 yards" not 50 metres (or whatever it converts to!). Same with the time "the barrage started at 3.15pm" not 15.15.

In a text/MS, consistency is advisable (until an editor changes it and introduces errors etc!)

[FROGSMILE]

Sculls, to give you my (in)expert opinion:

When used as a title, capitalise it, otherwise in lower case. "Brown marched out of recruit camp and was now a private in the Australian Army. Now known as Private Brown, he caught the train to join his battalion, the 41st Battalion. ..."

I agree with that usage too.

[FROGSMILE]

Sculls - the convention is/should be:

If you refer to Pte Bloggs then it is a capital letter P.

If you say "a captain went out into no man's land..." then it is a lower case c.

If you say " the brigade advanced..." then lower case b again.

If you say "184th Brigade repulsed the enemy" then upper case B.

Extending the subject, there's also the correct use of CO and OC.

Certainly you do find variations and inconsistencies. Journals that regularly publish research ideally should have preferred terminology - I tend to use the style used at the time (1914-18) as well as place names as they were (Ypres not Ieper). Also, imperial measurements - "the battalion advanced 50 yards" not 50 metres (or whatever it converts to!). Same with the time "the barrage started at 3.15pm" not 15.15.

In a text/MS, consistency is advisable (until an editor changes it and introduces errors etc!)

Good advice methinks. Interestingly in WW1 the unit and sub-unit commanders were both described as OC.

[Sculls]

Thanks once again to one-and-all for your expert advice, it is very much appreciated by us 'newbies'

Sculls

[Blackblue]

I think there is evidence some AIF were still wearing INF titles into 1916 when the AIF was in France.

Rgds

Tim D