Loos Ends: 8th (Service) Bn Seaforth Highlanders

[Guest]

Hello. I am trying to find a MIC or medal roll entry for two officers who served in the 8th (Service) Bn Seaforth Highlanders and who all became casualties at Loos. I have trawled Ancestry.co.uk and trawled the 1914-15 medal rolls to no avail. Both are mentioned in the War Diary as embarking with the battalion and both are recorded as casualties at Loos in the History of the 15th Scottish Div. Both are in the May 1915 Army List...but I can't find MICs or rolls.

They are:

Capt R M Powell MIA at Loos

2 Lt W Heath MIA at Loos

One similar man is 2 Lt G M Calder who was KIA - but not on the Officers' medal roll. The CWGC revealed his full name as George Macbeth Calder, and a further search reveals he was a 1050 Sgt George Macbeth Calder, Gordon Highlanders and commissioned from the ranks. I suspect that 2 Lt W Heath is similar.... but in the case of Powell it would be highly unusual for a 1914-15 commission from the ranks to reach Captain by May 1915 Powell is a particular mystery. Army List gives no indication he was from any other regiment (no annotation). Any guidance would be welcome. Thanks. MG

[TwoEssGee]

Could Capt Powell be Randolph Machattie Powell?

I have found an obituary for Henry Watson Powell (1847-1915) which lists his four surviving sons, one being Randolph, a Captain in the Seaforth Highlanders.

Henry was married to Marion Constance Machattie, and their son Randolph Machattie Powell was born in Tamworth, New South Wales on 28 Feb 1890.

It would appear that he was later a Major in the RGA, was awarded the DSO and survived the War, moving to Argentina in 1919 following his marriage to Clare Carew Smith Tetley. He was 38 at the time of their marriage and she was 56.

They bred horses at Estancia La Chacra, Ameghino province and were active in the polo scene in Argentina.

Randolph Powell died in 1978.

HTH.

[Guest]

Could Capt Powell be Randolph Machattie Powell?

I have found an obituary for Henry Watson Powell (1847-1915) which lists his four surviving sons, one being Randolph, a Captain in the Seaforth Highlanders.

Henry was married to Marion Constance Machattie, and their son Randolph Machattie Powell was born in Tamworth, New South Wales on 28 Feb 1890.

It would appear that he was later a Major in the RGA, was awarded the DSO and survived the War, moving to Argentina in 1919 following his marriage to Clare Carew Smith Tetley. He was 38 at the time of their marriage and she was 56.

They bred horses at Estancia La Chacra, Ameghino province and were active in the polo scene in Argentina.

Randolph Powell died in 1978.

HTH.

2SG

An interesting suggestion. His MIC is a riot but no mention of the Seaforths...but there is an Australian connection as he ends up in the Australian Corps, so there might well be a connection. This one disembarked in Aug 1914 in France. I don't see how and RGA Officer ends up in the Seaforths at Loos.... highly unusual. Also the Army List shows no connection of the RM Powell in the Seaforths as being seconded from any other unit.

The only Seaforth connection is an obituary and I don't know yet if it is the same person. An interesting lead nonetheless. This one is a bit of a headscratcher.

MG

[TwoEssGee]

Hmmm, strange.

His mother's obit is even more specific-

"Randolph is a Captain in the 8th Battalion Seaforth Highlanders and is at the front"

Her father, Dr Richard Machattie (1813-1876) was from Forres, Elgin which might explain the connection to the Seaforths.

[charlie962]

2nd Lt William Heath, Seaforth has officer Service papers at NA here

But like you I couldn't see his MIC on Ancestry, nor FMP nor NA. There is an LG reference 1917 for Seaforths,Temp 2nd Lt W Heath from Acting Lieut Training Reserve..

Casualty list as published Oct 6th 1915 in Aberdeen Journal for 8th Bn Seaforth has Heath and Powell as Wounded rather than Missing; this is within a list of 18 Officer casualties for the Bn!

LG has entries for RM Powell appointed adjutant 8th Bn May 1915 until July 1915. His service record at NA as RGA is here

Powell has an entry in Who's Who (presumably because of his DSO) but it only mentions RGA not Seaforths

[Guest]

There is no doubt Powell and Heath served in the 8th Bn. I hoped that was clear from the diary entry and Army List (and incidentally substantiated by the Div History). I simply don't have the medal roll/MIC to validate date of entry. Not entirely unusual but still an anomaly. MG

[Loader]

Probably not likley given your hard searches but could t here be a spelling error in the name so MIC listed under slightly different name? Rowell or Rowel Or Powel or variations.

Seems hard to mess up Heath but if some clerk can find a way, well............

I can appreciate how maddening this is to have enough info on them to confirm facts yet little official documentation to back them up! Wishing you good luck in this one & hoping the GWF will come through again as they do so many times.

[Guest]

Hmmm, strange.

His mother's obit is even more specific-

"Randolph is a Captain in the 8th Battalion Seaforth Highlanders and is at the front"

Her father, Dr Richard Machattie (1813-1876) was from Forres, Elgin which might explain the connection to the Seaforths.

The 8th Battalion is the clincher. This has to be the same man. It seems highly unlikely that there were two Capt R M Powell in the 8th Bn in 1915. The Battallion only deployed overseas in 1915 and there is only one RM Powell mentioned in the nominal roll. Given he went overseas in 1914 he must have been with one of the Regular battalions or on the Staff, but again I can't find him on the 1914 Star medal rolls. Edit an R M POwell appears on the RGA's 1914 Star medal roll.

The MIC is clearly assembled from the RGA records. At some stage he must have transferred - possibly after recovering from his wounds at Loos. It is odd that the MIC has no record of his prior service in the Seaforths.

Thanks for the pointers. Greatly appreciated. MG

Edit. He appears as a Temp Lt 8th Bn Seaforths in the LG dated 8th Dec 1914, Temp Capt to be Adjt 8th Seaforths 14th May 1915. Separately under the RGA R M POwell Capt to be Major and remain seconded. It does not specify which unit he was seconded to.

Given this was a K2 formation, I suspect he was RGA seconded to the 8th Seaforths as a way of providing Officers with some experience. My speculation.

[Guest]

Here are all the original battalion Officers of the 8th (Service) Bn Seaforth Highlanders.

The battalion suffered heavily at Loos on 25th Sep 1915. An unspecified number of Officers were left out of battle under Divisional orders. Of those who crossed the start line, 18 would become casualties. Of these there were 11 fatalities; a third of all its Officers killed in its first major action. Edit (twice):Of the 30 named battalion Officers, 24 would become casualties during the war; a casualty rate of 80%. Some 14 of the original 30 would become fatalities during the war; a fatality ratio of 47%. Nearly 90% of the original battalion Officer casualties occurred within 12 months of disembarking.

By comparison the regular 2nd Bn Seaforth Highlanders' 27 original Officers suffered 22 casualties during the war (81%) of whom 12 were fatalities (44%). The 2nd Battalion disembarked on 23rd August 1914. Over 85% of the casualties occurred within 12 months of landing.

Edit: Despite these rather harrowing figures, the rate of attrition does not appear to have changed much. That fatality ratios were more than double that of the average for British Officers during the war reflects two things:

1. The heavy burden carried by the infantry,

2. Within the infantry the consequences of being 'first encounter' cohorts.

It might also reflect higher casualty rates in the earlier part of the war, however this is difficult to establish by 'cohort' as most battalions had disembarked by 1915. Establishing a statistically significant cohort for 1916, 1917, 1918 is extremely difficult as Officer reinforcements arrived in very small groups.

I am trying to discover the fate of the other five Officers in the 8th Battalion. Any pointers would be gratefully received. MG

8th Bn Seaforth Highlanders: Officers serving with the Battalion in 1915

Medal Roll info is in black

Diary info is in blue

Other source info is in red

[charlie962]

D W P Strang a previous thread

altho not 'fate' as you wish to know; he survived but was he wounded on the way? Trf to a Labour Bn might suggest he was indeed wounded.

[charlie962]

Strang, Duncan and Holmes and Forsyth are all on the University of Edinburgh Roll of service (available on FMP). No mention of wounds but does give full names and throws up interesting details on previous and subsequent activities. They all appear to have survived at least

Charles Calder Forsyth, medical student , became Capt RAMC 1916 and won MC 1918

Frank Holmes, medical student, became Lt RAMC 1918

George Wilson Duncan, medical student, awarded MC Jan 1917

Duncan William Park Strang, Minister, MC and Legion of Honour 1916

[charlie962]

MG

I am not quite clear on your table's cut-off. You have several with entry date 2.10.15

What about Frederick George Hart? MIC shows 8th Seaforth, entry 3.10.15

Another from Edinburgh Univ, Law Student, 8th Seaforth, Lt Sep 1914, Capt Jan 1916, MC

Are you interested in these, presumably replacements after Loos?

Charlie

PS if W Heath was still a temporary 2nd Lt in 1917 does this imply original commission in the field ? Would his MIC be as an OR ?

[Guest]

MG

I am not quite clear on your table's cut-off. You have several with entry date 2.10.15

What about Frederick George Hart? MIC shows 8th Seaforth, entry 3.10.15

Another from Edinburgh Univ, Law Student, 8th Seaforth, Lt Sep 1914, Capt Jan 1916, MC

Are you interested in these, presumably replacements after Loos?

Charlie

PS if W Heath was still a temporary 2nd Lt in 1917 does this imply original commission in the field ? Would his MIC be as an OR ?

I have replaced the table with an updated version sorted in chronological order; Officers recorded with the battalion on 6th Jul 1915 followed by subsequent reinforcements.

The spreadsheet is much bigger than shown and includes all Officers in the Seaforth Highlanders on the 1914 Star and 1914-15 Star medal rolls - 399 named Officers in total including a handful commissioned from the ranks and posted in. The challenge is to identify those who served with the 8th Bn as the medal rolls do not record the battalions. The 8th Battalion nominal roll on 6th Jul 1915 was a good start but subsequent reinforcements need to be traced in the diary.

Medal Roll info is in black

Diary info is in blue

Other source info is in red

MG

[charlie962]

GM Calder from the initial post is not in the revised table?

William John Taylor Overseas with 8th 1915 served as Bn bombing officer for a period. Invalided home July 1916 trench fever. Back to France spring 1917. Severely wounded Vimy 23.4.17 and died Scotland 1.8.17. CWGC still has him as 8th Bn. Cannot find his MIC! Service Record WO 339/937

[Guest]

GM Calder from the initial post is not in the revised table?

William John Taylor Overseas with 8th 1915 served as Bn bombing officer for a period. Invalided home July 1916 trench fever. Back to France spring 1917. Severely wounded Vimy 23.4.17 and died Scotland 1.8.17. CWGC still has him as 8th Bn. Cannot find his MIC! Service Record WO 339/937

Calder added. Not sure how he disappeared.

ODGW has Taylor as a 8th Bn. I cant find him on a medal roll or his MIC. I suspect he was promoted from the ranks from a different regiment. MG

[Torridon1955]

The medal card for RM Powell RGA is for Robert Montagu Powell, not Randolph Machattie Powell, which is why there is no mention of the Seaforths. The fact that there were two RM Powells in the RGA is confusing.