"Personal weapons"

[seb phillips]

I was wondering if anyone had run across instances of officers bringing non-standard weapons into the trenches with them? Anyone deciding (for example) that a shortgun might be useful for clearing inruders out of a trench, that sort of thing. I know the Americans had them, but I wondered if anyone had seen 'personal arms' brought along that might have surprised a general if he inspected the line?

Thanks,

Seb

[burlington]

How about a nail studded club?

[Gareth Davies]

There is a recent thread on shotguns here: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=238268&hl=shotgun

[Khaki]

I think that for all sides knives would have been the most common form of personal weapon (non issue) perhaps followed by small pistols, remembering that British officers were expected to provide their own sidearms (including swords) so that an officers primary weapon (revolver) in most cases may be considered a personal one but would have passed inspection. I don't know of anything that would have surprised an inspecting general unless knuckle dusters were seen and perhaps considered not appropriate for an officer? Maybe a Luger? which would be a foolish choice to have in case of capture.

khaki

[Khaki]

I have just finished rereading 'As from Kemmel Hill' Arthur Behrend and there is a reference to some officers obtaining a Belgian shotgun and shooting grouse or rabbits until the colonel put a stop to them using his car. The point being that if shotguns had been wanted (doubles) I would have thought that most farms would have had at least one, I doubt that there was any serious consideration (locally) to using a shotgun in the British trenches, maybe the French or Belgians used them I don't know.

khaki

[Stoppage Drill]

I know of a TF infantry Corporal who asked family to send him a small automatic pistol, and acknowledged receiving it in April 1915. He was killed in May, no known grave.

[MikB]

Of course, there was Siegfried Sassoon's .32 Browning 1900 - an acquisition described in 'Memoirs Of An Infantry Officer'. Small automatics were very popular - I remember one article in 'Handgunner' magazine in the 1980s (I think) describing the Western Front as 'awash with .32s', and my impression was that officers carried all types of pistols they could get, from obsolete to modern, and of quality from abject to excellent.

[Beechhill]

Fritz used his personal revolver against a very special enemy.

"... please send me some more ammunition for my revolver. Ive shot too many rats lately. I hope you can get that somewhere"

http://fritzlimbach.blogspot.dk/2015/08/70-prellbock-12-august-1915.html?m=1

A very fascinating blog by forum member JWK.

[TEW]

Major-General Charles Howard Foulkes CB CMG DSO.

Had and used a Mauser during late 1914.

Not sure how that would have gone down if taken POW.

TEW

[Khaki]

Of course, there was Siegfried Sassoon's .32 Browning 1900 - an acquisition described in 'Memoirs Of An Infantry Officer'. Small automatics were very popular - I remember one article in 'Handgunner' magazine in the 1980s (I think) describing the Western Front as 'awash with .32s', and my impression was that officers carried all types of pistols they could get, from obsolete to modern, and of quality from abject to excellent.

The M1900 Browning .32 as carried by Sassoon & others alongside the standard .455 MkVI Webley (for comparison)

[Muerrisch]

I believe that officially an officer could provide his own weapon provided that it fired the issue massive round of 0.455"

[MikB]

I believe that officially an officer could provide his own weapon provided that it fired the issue massive round of 0.455"

It's a big bullet, yes - but fired at a low velocity and readily controllable by anybody with normal physical capability. I've seen photos of well-dressed ladies, some looking quite competent, at pistol practice with .455s.

The calibre requirement doesn't seem to've been rigidly enforced - I believe from old postings by TonyE (sadly missed now) that other calibres including the .32, .38 and .45 ACPs were available through Army stores.

[dman]

Mauser pistols (referring to the 1896 Mauser pistol) were popular among many groups early in 20 th Cent - officers, including Winston Churchill would privately purchase them, various anarchistic gangs used them most famously in the Siege of Sidney Street

Churchill carried one as army officer in Sudan at Battle Omdurman and in Boer War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauser_C96

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Sidney_Street

Some of the IRA leaders carried them during Easter Upraising

Users liked the 10 round magazine capacity and rapid reloading with stripper clips

The wooden holster doubled as stock which could be attached to pistol converting it into a erstwhile carbine

[Khaki]

Interesting and understandable that WSC apparently did not carry a C96 during the GW, or was it pure patriotism?

khaki

[MikB]

Interesting and understandable that WSC apparently did not carry a C96 during the GW, or was it pure patriotism?

khaki

Perhaps he just thought the 1911 was a better gun?

[Radlad]

Interesting and understandable that WSC apparently did not carry a C96 during the GW, or was it pure patriotism?

khaki

7.63mm Mauser was not a UK government stocked ammunition, .45 ACP was. Possibly he thought that readily available issue ammunition was preferable to privately obtained gold dust ( Civilian ammunition production was severely curtailed as the factories concentrated on war production) Capturing enemy supplies could not always be relied on.

Churchill had a rather large collection of pistols at that time and remained a firearms collector all his life. He would have had a wide choice available.

[kuksmith]

Concur that .45acp was on issue - I seem to recall reading in supplies lists at 18 shillings per 1000 in 1918. British forces had a number of Colt 1911 pistols on issue as well as in .455 Eley (W prefix to the serial number).

Back to the origin of thread - there are examples of privately owned sporting rifles taken into the line, partially as sniper-plate busters in the bigger bores as well as an accurate scoped rifle in the absence/shortage of official supply.

[Mk VII]

“……….When I arrived at the chateau I went straight to the Prime Minister's bedroom and found him finishing dressing. He was very cross.

"Don't point that revolver at me," he barked as I fumbled in strapping my revolver to my belt; then added with a half chuckle: "Do you remember when mine went off at Vimy?" and I remembered of course. He was then commanding a battalion and had come to visit me. He was always testing out new forms of trench clothing and weapons. On this occasion he had shown me before we started for the trenches a complicated automatic revolver with which he was very pleased. I was leading the way down a communication trench when I heard a burst of fire literally in my ear. I dived behind the next traverse thinking we had been surprised by a daylight raid. I peered round cautiously, revolver in hand. There was Winston, his patent automatic firing dangerously and continuously in the direction of his feet as it dangled at the end of its lanyard, which he held at arm's length. He danced like a cat on hot bricks in his attempts to get out of the unpredictable line of fire as the barrel pointed this way and that. I collapsed on the duckboards laughing until I could laugh no longer. My guest was only half amused then and later when reminded of the incident…………..,”

Major-General Sir Edward Spears, “Assignment To Catastrophe”

[James A Pratt III]

I have read German army officers in WW II did carry small pocket pistols in 25acp and 32acp calibers in their pockets and that all officers had to carry a sidearm with them at all times. I think they often had to buy this sidearm. I have also read that German officers in WW I did carry 25acp and 32acp pistols with them and production of these pistols continued during WW I so it looks like they also had to buy their own sidearms as well.

[MikB]

“……….When I arrived at the chateau I went straight to the Prime Minister's bedroom and found him finishing dressing. He was very cross.

"Don't point that revolver at me," he barked as I fumbled in strapping my revolver to my belt; then added with a half chuckle: "Do you remember when mine went off at Vimy?" and I remembered of course. He was then commanding a battalion and had come to visit me. He was always testing out new forms of trench clothing and weapons. On this occasion he had shown me before we started for the trenches a complicated automatic revolver with which he was very pleased. I was leading the way down a communication trench when I heard a burst of fire literally in my ear. I dived behind the next traverse thinking we had been surprised by a daylight raid. I peered round cautiously, revolver in hand. There was Winston, his patent automatic firing dangerously and continuously in the direction of his feet as it dangled at the end of its lanyard, which he held at arm's length. He danced like a cat on hot bricks in his attempts to get out of the unpredictable line of fire as the barrel pointed this way and that. I collapsed on the duckboards laughing until I could laugh no longer. My guest was only half amused then and later when reminded of the incident…………..,”

Major-General Sir Edward Spears, “Assignment To Catastrophe”

What the hell was that pistol, then? Extremely strange fault for a 1911 - or a Fosbery if the author really means 'automatic revolver'. Frankly, I'm thinking that Spears must've at least 'embroidered' the description of this incident.

[4thGordons]

What the hell was that pistol, then? Extremely strange fault for a 1911 - or a Fosbery if the author really means 'automatic revolver'. Frankly, I'm thinking that Spears must've at least 'embroidered' the description of this incident.

Agree. Sounds like some sort of slamfire - so I assume a semi-auto pistol. A quick online browse shows this can sometimes happen with mauser pistols but in all cases just a single accidental discharge not going "full" auto.

Chris

[new3.2]

Another direction. Several years ago there was an article written by Tony Edwards, I think in the IAA Journal, about British officers (early war) bringing their "big game rifles" to penetrate the armor-plate used by the Germans for sniper/MG protection. The .303 round would not penetrate these early shields.

new3.2

[4thGordons]

Another direction. Several years ago there was an article written by Tony Edwards, I think in the IAA Journal, about British officers (early war) bringing their "big game rifles" to penetrate the armor-plate used by the Germans for sniper/MG protection. The .303 round would not penetrate these early shields.

new3.2

Recent related thread HERE

[reese williams]

1911's can go full auto if the sear fails. My gun club has hosted a large pistol match for many years. In the 60's, 70's and 80's when the military was well funded there would be multiple military teams at the match, usually 400-600 shooters. Every couple of years someone's well tuned 1911 would go full auto on the firing line. Normally the shooter's hand would go from parallel to the ground to 90 degrees with the pistol pointed straight up. There were the corresponding holes in the tin roof of the firing line. After a minute everyone would unfreeze or get up off the ground. The shooter normally handed his pistol to his group's armorer and went off to change his skivvies.

[MikB]

1911's can go full auto if the sear fails. My gun club has hosted a large pistol match for many years. In the 60's, 70's and 80's when the military was well funded there would be multiple military teams at the match, usually 400-600 shooters. Every couple of years someone's well tuned 1911 would go full auto on the firing line. Normally the shooter's hand would go from parallel to the ground to 90 degrees with the pistol pointed straight up. There were the corresponding holes in the tin roof of the firing line. After a minute everyone would unfreeze or get up off the ground. The shooter normally handed his pistol to his group's armorer and went off to change his skivvies.

Yes, but if that happened, all rounds would be through the gun in about 1 second, and the incident wouldn't fit Spears' description in several significant respects...