British at Verdun

[KGB]

Blaise Cendras mentions a few Americans in the Foreign Legion at the periphery of Verdun. 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

2 minutes ago, KGB said:

Blaise Cendras mentions a few Americans in the Foreign Legion at the periphery of Verdun. 

See Post #12

 

[CROONAERT]

On ‎04‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 10:17, KGB said:

Blaise Cendras mentions a few Americans in the Foreign Legion at the periphery of Verdun. 

 

 

The 4e Régiment de marche du 1er Régiment étrangère was the Legion unit that served nearest to Verdun at any point before 1917. They served in the Argonne in 1914-15, but were nearly 100% Italian.  Cendrars , having lost his hand following a severe wounding during the 2nd Battle of Champagne in 1915, was out of it all by the time the 1916 Verdun battle started anyway!

 

However ... ....There actually were quite a number of Americans at Verdun in 1916 though (but not in la Légion). They mainly served in the 170e Régiment d'infanterie (most were ex-Légion étrangère who had transferred to metropolitan units following the amalgamations and disbandments of the original régiments de marche). Quite a few were killed an wounded near Vaux.

 

Also, the first US Aviator to be killed in combat was killed over Douaumont on 17th June 1916 whilst flying with Escadrille N.124 (the Escadrille Américaine).

 

 

Dave

Edited 5 December , 2016 by CROONAERT

[sheldrake]

On 29/11/2016 at 09:15, SiegeGunner said:

The excerpt from the diary seen at the cathedral in Albert is intriguing, as it's obviously written in English by a French person.  I wonder where the writer was located when he/she saw the exhausted artillery teams arriving from Verdun.  A few miles to the south of Albert and they could well have been French troops rotated out of the Verdun sector to rest and re-fit. 

 

It is more likely that the French troops rotated from Verdun to the Somme were there as part of the build up for the Battle of the Somme rather than to rest and refit. The Somme was originally planned as a French led allied attack in conjunction with Italian and Russian Summer offensives, but by June was to take the pressure of the French at Verdun. One French Corps the 20th "Iron" Corps would attack North of the River Somme.  This formation was one of the first reinforcements to be sent to the Verdun sector.   

 

At least some French batteries passed through Albert deploying with the BEF';s Fourth Army.  There were several batteries of 75s under British command. They were particularly useful as the French had a chemical round, filled, I think with teargas. 

[SiegeGunner]

In general, I would agree with Sheldrake, but the diary excerpt posted by Forfarian does say of the arriving artillery that the men looked tired, the horses were thin and the men's uniforms were 'those of the front line', so they were evidently not fresh units.

[CROONAERT]

1 hour ago, SiegeGunner said:

In general, I would agree with Sheldrake, but the diary excerpt posted by Forfarian does say of the arriving artillery that the men looked tired, the horses were thin and the men's uniforms were 'those of the front line', so they were evidently not fresh units.

 

The 11e and 39e Divisions d'infanterie who fought north of the River on 1st July 1916 arrived on the Somme (almost) directly from being in action at Verdun. Though they were bolstered by drafts of relatively new 'Class of 1916' recruits at this time, many of these were already Verdun 'veterans' even though they may not have been at the front for all that long. 'Class of 1917' recruits were only just arriving, but these were just a comparative trickle, so it would be safe to say that these units would not have appeared 'fresh' when they arrived on the Somme.

 

Dave

[SiegeGunner]

Thanks again, Dave, for setting the situation in context.  I have been commenting on the basis of the diary entry posted by Forfarian, initially, I have to admit, to wonder whether the diarist saw these weary artillery units in the French sector south of Albert, rather than in the city.  Artillery took longer to train than infantry, so I presume these units had seen more action.  Nevertheless, having (I hope) played a useful part as a sort of 'devil's advocate', I will now withdraw and leave the field to those with greater knowledge and documented evidence.

[Mrstatts]

On 15/07/2016 at 23:19, Guest Albean said:

I saw some material pertaining to Verdun in which someone claimed to have a British forebear at the battle. My grandfather Michael John O'Neill claimed to have fought there. He was severely wounded and named his son John Verdun O'Neill to commemorate the event. Everything I read suggests that he was wrong. Were there any British forces there?

Hi my husbands great grandfather was Michael O’Neill and his grandfather was John verdun O’Neill wondering if u had any more information 

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum, the originator of the thread is no longer a member here, as denoted by Guest. It was quite common for babies born during or after the war to be given names like Verdun.

[Mrstatts]

5 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

Welcome to the forum, the originator of the thread is no longer a member here, as denoted by Guest. It was quite common for babies born during or after the war to be given names like Verdun.

Awh thank you so much for letting me know I’m new and just curious to any more in for on the above named

[PRC]

Hi @Mrstatts and welcome to the forum

1 hour ago, Mrstatts said:

my husbands great grandfather was Michael O’Neill and his grandfather was John verdun O’Neill

If John Verdun O’Neill was born in England & Wales, then there is a potential match in the birth registration of a child of that name registered in the Merthyr Tydfil District in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1916. Mothers’ maiden name was Maher.

I don’t have a subscription to FindMyPast so I can only see what they have indexed for the 1921 Census & Wales, but there is a John V. O’Neill, born Penydarren, Glamorganshire, who was recorded living at Merthyr Tydfil. Others in the same household are:-
Michael O’Neill, born Kilkenny Ireland, c1881
Mary O’Neill, born Kilkenny, Ireland c1882
Lawrence O’Neill, born Treherbert, Glamorganshire c1913
Elizabeth O’Neill, born Penydarren, Glamorganshire c1917.

There are birth registrations for a Lawrence, (Pontypridd District Q2 1913) and Elizabeth, (Merthyr Tydfil Q4 1917) with mothers’ maiden name shown as Maher.

It may be a co-incidence but on the 1911 Census of England & Wales there is a 30 year old single man Michael John O’Neill, born Kilkenny, and an Underground Labourer at a Colliery, who was recorded as a lodger at 50 Hendrewen Road, Blaencwm, Treherbert, Glamorganshire.

I’m not spotting a likely marriage in England & Wales or likely candidate for a Mary Maher on the 1911 Census of England & Wales. Of course she may still have been in Ireland or was married to someone else at that time, etc, etc.

If that is the correct Michael O’Neill and he didn’t sign up in those final months of 1914 then unlikely he would have been accepted at a later date, especially if he was married. As the country accepted the reality of being in an industrial war, coal miners were alreay being returned from the Army – their work at the coal face was seen as being of greater worth to the war effort.

One potential way of checking that is fathers’ occupation on the three childrens’ birth certificates.

Unfortunately without some indication that Michael served in the Great War, the genealogy side of things is outside the scope of the forum.

Hope I haven’t given you a shoal of red herrings about the family, and good luck with your search.

Cheers,
Peter

[Mrstatts]

Thank you so much that is really helpful 

[Keith_history_buff]

The address in 1921 is
156, Gibson Row, Merthyr Tydfil, Glamorganshire, Wales

I presume that the 1918 Absent Voter List for Merthyr Tydfil has not been digitised, and would need to be physically consulted at the National Library of Wales, Aberystwyth?

 

 

[Keith_history_buff]

'It was quite common for babies born during or after the war to be given names like Verdun.'

There are 10,218 results on FindMyPast where "Verdun" is recorded
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?sourcecategory=life+events+(bmds)&sid=101&firstname=*verdun*&firstname_variants=true&keywordsplace_proximity=5&sourcecountry=great+britain

[Keith_history_buff]

As a single man, with no children, he was lodging at the following address, and appears on the 1911 census 
50 Hendrewen Road Blaencwm Treherbert, Rhondda, Glamorganshire, Wales

I presume it more likely that if he is on the 1918 AVL, he will be residing at Gibson Street, rather than the above address.

[Mrstatts]

Thanks a lot will do some more research now thanks for the information 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, Keith_history_buff said:

I presume that the 1918 Absent Voter List for Merthyr Tydfil has not been digitised, and would need to be physically consulted at the National Library of Wales, Aberystwyth?

That is correct, although some forum members may have historic copies.

I wonder if @clive_hughes can help?

[Hedley Malloch]

A few years ago (10? 15?) there was an exhibition held in the Ossuary at Verdun on the subject of non-French soldiers who had fought with the French army at Verdun. I distinctly remember 3 British men being featured, one of whom was from Gateshead. From memory, they all served in units of the French army.