Numbers of British P.1907 bayonets surviving

[Phil B]

Good evening Gentlemen,

apparently I’ve been sitting on a number that I was in aware of until Terry pointed it out while helping me with my tagging project. So here is 6274 for the register 

number 14  is 5168 and is in poor condition and weighs in at 495

cheers Phil 

Good evening Gentlemen,

apparently I’ve been sitting on a number that I was in aware of until Terry pointed it out while helping me with my tagging project. So here is 6274 for the register 

number 14  is 5168 and is in poor condition and weighs in at 495

cheers Phil 

Good evening Gentlemen,

apparently I’ve been sitting on a number that I was in aware of until Terry pointed it out while helping me with my tagging project. So here is 6274 for the register 

number 14  is 5168 and is in poor condition and weighs in at 495

cheers Phil 

[Phil B]

5168 weighs in at 495 and is in poor condition wood wise . Hope to get some more this year 

cheers 

phil

 

[t.ryan]

Phil,

Looks like you had a bit of trouble with the trigger finger sticking there. We sure got the message!!!.

That is your 14 bayonets ranging from 490 to 520, so not a lot of difference. The wood grips and screw condition would play a part but looking at a few of them, I see poor condition grips and screws at 500 and good condition grips and screws at 490.

Cheers,

TR

[JMB1943]

Phil B & TR,

Thanks for finding yet another serial number, #6274; duly recorded.

Also, many thanks for taking the time to record the weights of your Tigers.

When Trajan and I were looking at variations in weight of regular Patt 1907 Bayonets, we were able to determine that the variations were due pretty much to the weight of the blade.

Because of the relatively low density of wood vs metal, the condition of the grips (from ratty to excellent) made on.y a  VERY minor contribution to the weight.

Regards,

JMB

 

[t.ryan]

JMB,

Been out the back cat hunting again and managed to bag a few new smiling tigers for the list, in fact quiet a good litter this time which will break the 250 number when we add these along with the last four above.

All are straight forward numbers except for one which I think is #9458, ? on 58. I already have a clear photo of listed #9459.

The more I try to magnify this one, the more blurry it becomes.

There is still one stray in the back yard that does elude me, I think it may have number .22 on it!!.

Numbers 516, 2106, 2418, 2529, 2675, 3022, 3673, 3682, 4378, 9264, 9337, 9383, 9499 and the one in question, #9458.

So good fun checking these out and adding them if ok.

I also came across a few new RAF numbers during search, so will upload them also,

Cheers,

TR

[JMB1943]

Mr TR,

How do you and your wife sleep at night with Santa's elves hammering away in the garden shed????

Must be a long......................................garden.

Anyway, you have definitely stumbled across a breeding colony.

I'll put out the updated list at the end of this month, so many thanks again for all of your efforts with the hunt.

This latest batch breaks the 250 barrier, so congrats on that!!!

Regards,

JMB

EDIT: I have rotated it and put a mag glass on it---agree that it looks like #9458

Edited 28 June , 2023 by JMB1943
Add info

[Phil B]

WANTED , Siamese 1907 (Type 62) number 4076. yeah I know its a long shot but I need to try.

why you ask? well you see I have the rifle and want to try reunite it with her tooth . i see on the register 4078 so lets hope we can find this one .

Thanks for looking

Regards your Smiling Tiger Addict

[Phil B]

Someone on Facebook just picked this one up ….

[t.ryan]

Phil,

I posted that one, #1829 on page 22 on the 19th June. Finding any new numbers is becoming quiet hard at the moment.

Cheers,

TR

 

[JMB1943]

Gentlemen,

I hope better late than never......here is the updated list.

Regards, JMB

1	1013	2011	3008	4060	5021	6013	7056	8089	9047	32xx
6	1021	2078	3022	4070	5027	6107	7094	8104	9070	5x46
35	1046	2106	3070	4078	5044	6137	7128	8181	9088	608x
67	1048	2133	3090	4116	5066	6212	7143	8262	9091	808x
96	1099	2177	3155	4127	5154	6249	7441	8349	9130	x2x2
107	1115	2247	3260	4150	5168	6279	7594	8363	9185	xx1
130	1118	2278	3279	4335	5171	6285	7600	8388	9229	x070
145	1166	2280	3290	4378	5221	6339	7611	8415	9233	104x
320	1202	2339	3400	4403	5225	6430	7626	8496	9264	x33x
326	1241	2390	3449	4406	5278	6476	7745	8625	9288	x95
330	1306	2399	3454	4451	5351	6485	7778	8651	9296	71x
341	1326	2411	3572	4454	5391	6527	7860	8712	9306	16xx
392	1367	2418	3673	4496	5405	6557	7948	8714	9337	X97
404	1431	2529	3682	4537	5411	6581	7973	8726	9338	437x
427	1482	2590	3689	4570	5502	6630	7999	8732	9356	X400
456	1485	2622	3797	4629	5531	6732		8737	9372
505	1527	2675	3810	4632	5960	6737		8751	9383
516	1584	2702	3815	4650		6750		8783	9385
541	1635	2715	3893	4651		6801		8793	9412
544	1757	2784	3958	4654		6819		8833	9413
577	1758	2815	3992	4724		6831			9458
590	1831	2833		4770		6847			9459
625	1860	2849		4779					9499
644	1889	2851		4803					9502
649	1926	2925		4983					9737
711	1980								9792
714									9851
732									9903
788									9931
836									9957
866									9968
941									10000
979
997
34	26	25	21	25	17	22	15	20	32	15 = 253

 

[t.ryan]

JMB,

Thanks for updating, sorry but it looks like you overlooked adding the three from page 22 which are #s 1829, 2936, 9589.

Phil,s # 6274 from page 22 also needs to be added.

I think I have dug to the bottom of the pit, (the roofs of the houses in China are starting to show through) but I have not come across any new smiling tiger numbers in the past few weeks.

Phil has scored a new Siamese SMLE rifle; he will be searching hard for the matching numbered bayonet, so the search will go on.

Cheers.

TR

Edited 16 July , 2023 by t.ryan
Add extra info.

[JMB1943]

TR,

Mea culpa!......now, where is that sword?

Also, #3395 from Gunboards, just today.

Regards, JMB

1	1013	2011	3008	4060	5021	6013	7056	8089	9047	32xx
6	1021	2078	3022	4070	5027	6107	7094	8104	9070	5x46
35	1046	2106	3070	4078	5044	6137	7128	8181	9088	608x
67	1048	2133	3090	4116	5066	6212	7143	8262	9091	808x
96	1099	2177	3155	4127	5154	6249	7441	8349	9130	x2x2
107	1115	2247	3260	4150	5168	6279	7594	8363	9185	xx1
130	1118	2278	3279	4335	5171	6285	7600	8388	9229	x070
145	1166	2280	3290	4378	5221	6339	7611	8415	9233	104x
320	1202	2339	3395	4403	5225	6430	7626	8496	9264	x33x
326	1241	2390	3400	4406	5278	6476	7745	8625	9288	x95
330	1306	2399	3449	4451	5351	6485	7778	8651	9296	71x
341	1326	2411	3454	4454	5391	6527	7860	8712	9306	16xx
392	1367	2418	3572	4496	5405	6557	7948	8714	9337	X97
404	1431	2529	3673	4537	5411	6581	7973	8726	9338	437x
427	1482	2590	3682	4570	5502	6630	7999	8732	9356	X400
456	1485	2622	3689	4629	5531	6732		8737	9372
505	1527	2675	3797	4632	5960	6737		8751	9383
516	1584	2702	3810	4650		6750		8783	9385
541	1635	2715	3815	4651		6801		8793	9412
544	1757	2784	3893	4654		6819		8833	9413
577	1758	2815	3958	4724		6831			9458
590	1829	2833	3992	4770		6847			9459
625	1831	2849		4779					9499
644	1860	2851		4803					9502
649	1889	2925		4983					9589
711	1926	2936
714	1980
732
788
836
866
941
979
997
34	27	26	22	25	17	22	15	20	33	15 = 257

 

[t.ryan]

JMB

The new list looks the goods and will help out heaps in the search for new numbers.

Good find with #3395, I will post photo for the record. Lets hope that Hauptmann01 can come up with a few new numbers out of his litter of 15 smiling tiger bayonets.

He must be having a contest with PhilB.

Cheers

TR

 

[trajan]

Been off the forum for less than 10 days and all this piles up! How many did you start of with JMB????

Work (a condensed compacted summer school schedule), adolescents (my boys...), two student MA theses to get done by the end of the month (WHY do they leave things to the last minute?), and weather (never less than 35 in the day, 16 at night - but low humidity), all these things have conspired against me joining y'all since 13th - and I will reply to messages and emails as the day goes by!

Julian

[Matthewsq]

Hi everyone, 

JMB, this is a great project. I wanted to add my example to the mix. I picked this bayonet up in a antique store in New Westminster, Canada about 16 years ago. It came in an Australian scabbard stamped Mangrovite 42, which makes me suspect it was one of the bayos that came out of Australia and somehow made its way to Canada.

Unfortunately, the bayonet is stored at my house across the country, so I can't check the number for you quite yet (all I have is this super grainy photo from when I shared it over on the warrelics forum). But I am certain it's not on your list given the amount of time its been in my collection. 

I'll be visiting home in September and will take a look for you then. 

Cheers, 

Quinn

 

Edited 31 July , 2023 by Matthewsq

[JMB1943]

Quinn,

Thanks for posting about your Smiling Tiger, and we all look forward to seeing a clear photo of the serial number!!

Regards,

JMB

Edited 31 July , 2023 by JMB1943

[Phil B]

Here you go Fellow Cat Lovers 7187 , 7797 from the UK oh and there is a twist  with the latter , you can have your thoughts on that for discussion and lastly 3372 from the Maroochydore on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland in a private collection. Hope this adds some controversy , cheers Phil 

[Phil B]

Here is a clearer photo 

[JMB1943]

Phil B,

I will take 7187 and 7977, but I’m not touching that other monstrosity with a 10-ft barge pole!

Regards,

JMB
 

[t.ryan]

Phil,

You have had a good week, coming up with 2 new numbers, #7187 & #3327, and also adding one that needs a bit of a looking at #7797.

JMB,

I am sure you mean #3327 not #7977 as one of the good ones.

#7797 is defiantly not one of the 10000 original smiling tiger bayonets numbered in the UK in 1920 but it is interesting in that the smiling tiger face looks correct.

It is clear to see that there has been a fill of some sort roughly placed over where the existing stampings were and the new numbers #7797 stamped into it.

The interesting thing about these new numbers; 7797 is that they look much more like the numbers on the Siamese # chart that we have been working off; than the numbers that were stamped on the original 10000 bayonets in the UK..

I am wondering if this restamp may have been done as a repair in Siam at a later date using their own Siamese numeral stamps. It would be interesting to see any other photo's of the stampings or lack of; on the other side of the blade to compare.

For me, not one for the original 10000 list, but interesting, worth looking at, learning from and making note of.

Cheers,

TR

 

[JMB1943]

TR & Phil B,

Yes, of course I really meant to bring 7187 & 3372 into the cat farm.

#7797 looks to me as if new-made stamps have been pressed into bright and shiny solder. Would love to see a better-lit photo.

I find it VERY hard to imagine what sort of damage could have required  the serial number to be re-applied in Siam, post-1920.

The tiger head has been polished within an inch of its life (or a shot of Botox) but I think is genuine.

However, I'm not going to enter 7797 in theTable.

Regards,

JMB

[JMB1943]

Mr. TR & Phil B,

The question of genuine / fake smiling tigers has been on my mind since 2021, when our friend 4th Gordons acquired serial #6.

I put together a draft paper in July 2021, based on the idea of facial recognition to detect a fake SMTGR bayonet, regarding the economics and practicality of producing such fakes.

Serial #6 is NOT under suspicion here, but it was selected by me as a comparator because it is the lowest serial # yet recorded, and is likely to best represent the stamped Tiger head in all of its glory.

Facial recognition software works by comparing certain facial characteristics i.e., distances between any of eyes/ears/lips/nose etc.

I include here a photo of #6 (highly magnified); note that the head is asymmetric.

Some extracts from my text will follow in my next post.

Regards,

JMB

 

[JMB1943]

Continuation of FAKE / GENUINE ???

This is a snippet from my write-up.

Measured various facial ratios of 6 presumed genuine VS the 1 suspect tiger.

Performed regression analyses to see which , if any, set of results was suspect.

CONCLUSION-----Inconclusive!!!

Regards,

JMB

Precis Fake.pdf

[t.ryan]

JMB,

You have got me looking at smiling tiger faces now, (I have photo' of about 215 of them) but as with the three restamped 7s on this bayonet, they all look slightly different because of how hard each number was struck. 

The search must go on, but I am off today for a few weeks, so happy hunting.

Cheers,

TR

[JMB1943]

 Mr TR,

OK, you deserve a break (and so does Mrs Ryan!)

Enjoy the walkabout and come back refreshed.

Regards,

JMB