Guest Posted 25 August , 2016 Share Posted 25 August , 2016 (edited) Having recently read "Haig's Intelligence: GHQ and the Western Front 1916-1918" (incidentally a very strong buy), I started following up on Charteris - the Intelligence Chief - through the bibliography. It is difficult to find a decent book on this controversial character. One of the references discussing Charteris' character and a few interesting aspects of the British Intelligence was a book titled "Disenchantment" by C E Montague (a very disgruntled and bitter Staff Officer). Republished quite recently, it looked promising having three reviewers scoring it fours stars on Amazon, however it is possibly one of the most difficult books I have ever tried to read. If anyone is thinking of buying it (available on Kindle via Amazon) be warned. Any pointers on books that do provide a detailed insight on Charteris would be welcome. I can't locate a copy of his GHQ. I would truly like to find a biography of him, or another history of the Intelligence branch (not the Intelligence Corps) during the Great War. Disenchanted. MG Edited 25 August , 2016 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 25 August , 2016 Share Posted 25 August , 2016 (edited) Might be more productive to include "Charteris" in your otherwise witty thread title. I like puns but before I opened the thread I thought it was going to be navy related Edited 25 August , 2016 by John_Hartley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMeech Posted 25 August , 2016 Share Posted 25 August , 2016 2 hours ago, QGE said: Having recently read "Haig's Intelligence: GHQ and the Western Front 1916-1918" (incidentally a very strong buy), I started following up on Charteris - the Intelligence Chief - through the bibliography. It is difficult to find a decent book on this controversial character. One of the references discussing Charteris' character and a few interesting aspects of the British Intelligence was a book titled "Disenchantment" by C E Montague (a very disgruntled and bitter Staff Officer). Republished quite recently, it looked promising having three reviewers scoring it fours stars on Amazon, however it is possibly one of the most difficult books I have ever tried to read. If anyone is thinking of buying it (available on Kindle via Amazon) be warned. Any pointers on books that do provide a detailed insight on Charteris would be welcome. I can't locate a copy of his GHQ. I would truly like to find a biography of him, or another history of the Intelligence branch (not the Intelligence Corps) during the Great War. Disenchanted. MG Hi Have you read 'Armour Against Fate - British Military Intelligence in the First World War' by Michael Occleshaw? Its Chapter 10 is titled 'Haig and Charteris'. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjustice Posted 25 August , 2016 Share Posted 25 August , 2016 (edited) No-one has attempted a monograph on Charteris to date. He's a bit of a hand-grenade in British Army mythology and his nature was Wilsonesque without having the clout to become a true machiavellian. I always thought him rather good naturedly 'helpful' and foggy rather than overtly devious though. I recommend reading his auto-biographical (and oft economical with the truth) At GHQ to get his drift and then work through the number of book chapters and journal articles about his career, time at GHQ and his supposed influence before getting the boot following Third Ypres. The very best footnote I can add about Charteris is particularly of interest to you as a reader of the BOH. Edmonds was intimately familiar with Charteris' career, proclivities and his private papers (including many regarding GHQ). On his death, Charteris' wife Noel was besieged by offers from publishers wanting to get the scoop. On approaching Edmonds for advice, he advised her to burn all his papers as they were 'unlikely to be of interest for future historians'. You can make your own mind up about that and him, and the best of luck to you. Personally, I like him Cheers, SMJ P.S. I see a copy of At GHQ on Amazon for forty quid. Unless you're a bibliophile like me I would just find a library copy https://www.amazon.co.uk/AT-G-H-Q-GHQ-J-Charteris/dp/B00085PEDU Edited 25 August , 2016 by sjustice At GHQ book details Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Filsell Posted 25 August , 2016 Share Posted 25 August , 2016 Montague, as you say is not an easy read, although not without interest. Published in 1922 the title, and the content, were unusual at the time although 'disenchantment, became a growing theme in writing about and recording experiences of, the Great War by British and empire writers between the wars although, it seems, strangely far less apparent in German authorship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 25 August , 2016 Share Posted 25 August , 2016 (edited) John, Mike, Simon, David - many thanks for the informed input. "At GHQ" ordered. Strangely I tried abe books and it was blank a few days ago. I am always slightly cautious of autobiographical accounts as they often seem biased and self serving. One wonders if the head of Intelligence could ever write something close to the truth. His papers are archived (Kings? If memory serves - please correct me) and would be an interesting trawl. From the little I have read my inclination is one of empathy. The transition and growth of the Intelligence function seems to be a potentially rich seam of interesting information. Macdonogh is also of interest so any pointers for informed biography would be of interest. Mike Meech - thanks for the pointer. Do you have a view on the book? Is it worth buying? I suspect this will become an expensive thread. I would also be interested in exploring any books on German intelligence during the Great War. MG iPad. On the road. Please excuse typos and errors MG Edited 26 August , 2016 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Filsell Posted 25 August , 2016 Share Posted 25 August , 2016 Martin, I 'll be happy to loan you a copy for a trawl. You are owed a favour for past help. Regards David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMeech Posted 26 August , 2016 Share Posted 26 August , 2016 11 hours ago, QGE said: John, Mike, Simon, David - many thanks for the informed input. "At GHQ" ordered. Strangely I tried abe books and it was blank a few days ago. I am always slightly cautious of autobiographical accounts as they often seem biased and self serving. One wonders if the head of Intelligence could ever write something close to the truth. His papers are archived (Kings? If memory serves - please correct me) and would be an interesting trawl. From the little I have read my inclination is one of empathy. The transition and growth of the Intelligence function seems to be a potentially rich seam of interesting information. Macdonogh is also of interest so any pointers for informed biography would be of interest. Mike Meech - thanks for the pointer. Do you have a view on the book? Is it worth buying? I suspect this will become an expensive thread. I would alos alos be interested in exploring any books on German intelligence during the Great War. MG iPad. On the road. Please excuse typos and errors MG Hi I have a copy and found it quite good, it was published in 1989 so may miss out on some later research. It is quite wide ranging and has a good bibliography. There appears to be quite a few 'cheap' second hand copies on Amazon UK if you do decide to buy after taking up David's offer. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Filsell Posted 26 August , 2016 Share Posted 26 August , 2016 My copy is of AT GHQ is 1931 and a much read Boots Book-Lovers Library (I have also a couple of ex Harrods library books on my shelves - in far better condition than a mere Boots Library book of course) At GHQ cost £10.00 some 20 years ago. I don't think it's ever been a commonly available second hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 26 August , 2016 Share Posted 26 August , 2016 (edited) 10 hours ago, David Filsell said: Martin, I 'll be happy to loan you a copy for a trawl. You are owed a favour for past help. Regards David David, a kind offer but I have managed to buy a copy for the Princely sum of 1p plus £2.80 p&p. Thank you for the thought though. MG Edited 26 August , 2016 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Filsell Posted 26 August , 2016 Share Posted 26 August , 2016 Cheap at many times the price I would have thought.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjustice Posted 26 August , 2016 Share Posted 26 August , 2016 (edited) 8 hours ago, QGE said: David, a kind offer but I have managed to buy a copy for the Princely sum of 1p plus £2.80 p&p. Thank you for the thought though. MG Defo a worthy find. Check for a signature! I have a signed Cassel first edition and if you have the same I raise a glass of fizz to you! Charteris's surviving papers are at the LHCMA and include some of Edmonds' comments on draft chapters of At GHQ and his Haig books. They're interesting as a matter of fact, but not revealing. At GHQ itself was largely based on letters written to Noel as he 'didn't keep a diary' The juicy bits were destroyed on Edmonds' direction. Such a shame he 'didn't realise their importance'. Cheers, SMJ Edited 26 August , 2016 by sjustice Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 26 August , 2016 Share Posted 26 August , 2016 1 hour ago, sjustice said: Defo a worthy find. Check for a signature! I have a signed Cassel first edition and if you have the same I raise a glass of fizz to you! Charteris's surviving papers are at the LHCMA and include some of Edmonds' comments on draft chapters of At GHQ and his Haig books. They're interesting as a matter of fact, but not revealing. At GHQ itself was largely based on letters written to Noel as he 'didn't keep a diary' The juicy bits were destroyed on Edmonds' direction. Such a shame he 'didn't realise their importance'. Cheers, SMJ Dr Simon there are lots more at 1p online. Either a large print run or a small audience or both. Can I assume you have trawled the Charteris papers? It would be useful to know whether it is worth making the trip. Ref destruction of his papers. Given this is Intel I strongly suspect the alleged destruction of his papers was/is part of the cover story to stop anyone prying into the darker parts of the British Intel ops in the Great War. I have little doubt that the British did quite ghastly things (rightly so when so many lives were at stake in my view) and the GOvt does not want these declassified for a very long time. As I am sure you are acutely aware, the declassification of a vast amount of Great War material for public access only happened in 1967 and given the proximity to events (still only two generations ago) I suspect much is still locked up. one aspect of Intel is to make the opposition believe you are far behind them. The snippets from the German archives 'stunningly revealed' by Barton in his recent documentary suggest (to me at least) that the British were quite happy to allow the Germans to believe that the British had no idea what was known. Related to this, but from another War was the cracking of Ultra and the Enigma. The British having conquered Everest (the Enigma) faced a larger problem: how to use this. Too much info passed on would alert the Germans to the fact that it had been cracked. The weight of responsibility on the shoulders of those who 'knew' and how many lives were still expended in order to protect the source is something that is worth thinking about. As an extension (reversion?) of this, one might consider the deliberate misinformation in the post Great War assessments of the Intelligence. Arguably the public might never know how far ahead (or behind) the British were. just some random thoughts. MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjustice Posted 26 August , 2016 Share Posted 26 August , 2016 I love the way your mind works MG...I have trawled all known (to me) papers of JC and it depends what your goal is. A scholarly exploration of Charteris's career would be incomplete without perusing his papers. The problem with JC is that so much of the known primary evidence is missing. It doesn't mean the remaining evidence is dodgy per se, it's just incomplete...and therefore could be...etc. lots of signposts. We're not talking an intel cover up here though. Edmonds and Charteris were much more engaged with the empire and establishment argument and, in particular, the reputation(s) of the higher command and government. It's all there for you to peruse! Cheers, SMJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 27 August , 2016 Share Posted 27 August , 2016 9 hours ago, sjustice said: I love the way your mind works MG...I have trawled all known (to me) papers of JC and it depends what your goal is. A scholarly exploration of Charteris's career would be incomplete without perusing his papers. The problem with JC is that so much of the known primary evidence is missing. It doesn't mean the remaining evidence is dodgy per se, it's just incomplete...and therefore could be...etc. lots of signposts. We're not talking an intel cover up here though. Edmonds and Charteris were much more engaged with the empire and establishment argument and, in particular, the reputation(s) of the higher command and government. It's all there for you to peruse! Cheers, SMJ Dr Simon thanks for the confirmation. I am more interested in the development of Intelligence rather than Charteris' career, although they are of course closely related. I am struggling to understand why Edmonds would encourage Charteris' widow to destroy his papers. What were his motives? Protecting higher command? Edmonds was fairly critical of higher command in the BOH. Charteris seems to have been a scapegoat for some decisions that with hindsight were seen to be suboptimal. Not sure I understand this part of history at all. MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjustice Posted 27 August , 2016 Share Posted 27 August , 2016 Edmonds really wasn't critical of the higher command, by which I mean the (Army) CiC, CGS, CIGS (pre-Wilson), past his disgruntlement at his own circumstances. Charteris told lies; not a virtuous path and fatal to his career. He was, however, completely loyal to the Chief and was more than willing to take one for the team in his defence. As was Robertson. This ability to engender such love and faith I find one of the most intriguing facets of Haig... Edmonds. Edmonds. Such a complex character. I REALLY like Edmonds and have an awed respect for what he achieved in compiling the BOH. I disagree with him frequently...but I always start at the BOH and go from there. But for any historian to promote the destruction of primary documents is unforgivable. We don't know what was contained theirin and it's likely we will never know but, because of the above, and because of the enormity of the crime, I can only deduce it was to safeguard reputations rather than mere secrets. I have another recommendation for you, and one you will definitely appreciate: Writing the Great War: Sir James Edmonds and the Official Histories, 1915-1948, Andrew Green, Routledge, 2003. One of the most significant additions to the knowledge of the British involvement in the Great War and my all time favourite history drama. You can't make this stuff up. Literally. Cheers, SMJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 27 August , 2016 Share Posted 27 August , 2016 31 minutes ago, sjustice said: Edmonds really wasn't critical of the higher command, by which I mean the (Army) CiC, CGS, CIGS (pre-Wilson), past his disgruntlement at his own circumstances. Charteris told lies; not a virtuous path and fatal to his career. He was, however, completely loyal to the Chief and was more than willing to take one for the team in his defence. As was Robertson. This ability to engender such love and faith I find one of the most intriguing facets of Haig... Edmonds. Edmonds. Such a complex character. I REALLY like Edmonds and have an awed respect for what he achieved in compiling the BOH. I disagree with him frequently...but I always start at the BOH and go from there. But for any historian to promote the destruction of primary documents is unforgivable. We don't know what was contained theirin and it's likely we will never know but, because of the above, and because of the enormity of the crime, I can only deduce it was to safeguard reputations rather than mere secrets. I have another recommendation for you, and one you will definitely appreciate: Writing the Great War: Sir James Edmonds and the Official Histories, 1915-1948, Andrew Green, Routledge, 2003. One of the most significant additions to the knowledge of the British involvement in the Great War and my all time favourite history drama. You can't make this stuff up. Literally. Cheers, SMJ Dr Simon. Thanks again for the valuable insights. I have Andrew Green's book. I would consider myself 'informed' on Gallipoli and his assessment of Aspinall-Oglander's two volumes on Gallipoli was one of my starting points. It led me to the Isle of Wight Records Office where Aspinall-Oglander's papers are. Another little gold mine of information. The most revealing part of Green's book was the extent to which the ANZAC's performance was rewritten. It is a great piece of research and it is a pity that Green's forensic mind was not applied to more Great War subjects. I assume you have Edmond's memoirs. MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjustice Posted 27 August , 2016 Share Posted 27 August , 2016 1 hour ago, QGE said: <snip> I assume you have Edmond's memoirs. MG I'm glad you reminded me about that...ordered! Cheers, SMJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 30 August , 2016 Share Posted 30 August , 2016 (edited) "At GHQ" By Charteris arrived today. A fascinating read. He writes well I think, and the Galaxy of important people that he comes into contact with would provide easy reference points to corroborate (or otherwise) his version of events. I have little doubt that his version of events devaites from the truth on occasion, however the extent to which this happens is clearly difficult to establish. Interestingly DH had given Charteris permission to open the King's Messenger's letters. This was the route that DH used to undermine Sir John French, so it is interesting that he was monitoring this back-channel. Lots of interesting snippets. A worthwhile purchase. MG Edited 30 August , 2016 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjustice Posted 31 August , 2016 Share Posted 31 August , 2016 On 8/30/2016 at 15:32, QGE said: "At GHQ" By Charteris arrived today. A fascinating read. <snip> A worthwhile purchase. MG *thumbs up* Enjoy the threads! Cheers, SMJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Filsell Posted 1 September , 2016 Share Posted 1 September , 2016 Remarkably your comment about Great War records, "I suspect much is still locked up" has not created a reaction. Whist I am certain much was destroyed, has anyone any evidence of material being held still? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 1 September , 2016 Share Posted 1 September , 2016 On 8/25/2016 at 18:02, MikeMeech said: Hi Have you read 'Armour Against Fate - British Military Intelligence in the First World War' by Michael Occleshaw? Its Chapter 10 is titled 'Haig and Charteris'. Mike Mike. Book arrived yesterday. Another interesting read. Very educational. Thank you for the recommendation. Trying to digest the chapter. Regards MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perth Digger Posted 2 September , 2016 Share Posted 2 September , 2016 David The CWGC does not allow access to their correspondence records. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 2 September , 2016 Share Posted 2 September , 2016 If anyone is interested in the Intelligence aspects, Mike Meech's excellent recommendation "Armour Against Fate: British Military Intelligence in the First World War" by Michael Occleshaw is compulsory reading. It is a great read. He had the privilege of communicating directly with one or two key players back in the 1980s and has done some hard yards in the archives. The bibliography is quite astonishing in its scope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMeech Posted 2 September , 2016 Share Posted 2 September , 2016 17 hours ago, QGE said: Mike. Book arrived yesterday. Another interesting read. Very educational. Thank you for the recommendation. Trying to digest the chapter. Regards MG Hi Glad it is of use. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now