What`s on the Infantry Lanyard?

[PhilB]

A search through the GWF indicates that the lanyard was originally an artilleryman`s way of conveniently carrying gunnery tools. In infantrymen, it seems to have been for carrying the jack knife. Photos don`t seem to show a bulge consistent with the knife theory and the breast pocket isn`t the place I`d choose to carry one. Is there any evidence as to what exactly (if anything) was on the pocket end of the infantry private`s lanyard? A whistle maybe? Though most privates wouldn`t have carried a whistle?

[Tomo.T]

I think not a whistle, but it's a good place to keep a pocket watch, or indeed a clasp knife although the latter was usually worn around the waist on a string lanyard.

[Andrew Upton]

A couple of good threads on the subject, plus a thread of threads:

 

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?/topic/158581-clasp-knives-lanyards/#comment-1533123

 

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?/topic/89062-north-mids-field-ambulance-ramc-uniform/#comment-830643

 

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?/search/&q=lanyard&author=joe Sweeney

 

In a nutshell - pre-war only troops associated with mounted duties got clasp knives and the shoulder lanyard. Only on mobilization was everyone else supposed to get them. As already mentioned, carriage was supposed to be in the top left pocket but this is a very impractical place to store the knife if you expect to use it, so other locations (longer rope lanyards around the waist with the clasp knife in the trouser pocket for example) were utilised more frequently. The lanyard itself then gets retained more often as a purely decorative item instead (and this is reflected post-war with some units changing their lanyards being worn on the left shoulder to the right, to help prevent them becoming soiled when sloping rifles).

Edited 22 September , 2016 by Andrew Upton

[PhilB]

Thanks, gents. So the correct answer is probably - nothing! It does seem odd that, at a time when the army had difficulty supplying basic uniforms and equipment, they should continue to supply lanyards with no purpose. Or maybe they were private purchase?

[Tomo.T]

I suspect we are getting our lanyards mixed up here. The clasp knife was actually issued with a plain string lanyard similar in style to the pull through. This was worn around the waist beneath the jacket, with the knife tucked into the trouser pocket. Alternately it is sometimes seen hanging from belts by means of a loop with a 'D' ring attached. The white shoulder lanyard was not intended to carry anything specific, being more an item of uniform for certain

Regiments or Corps.

 

Tomo

[Grovetown]

1 hour ago, Tomo.T said:

I suspect we are getting our lanyards mixed up here. The clasp knife was actually issued with a plain string lanyard similar in style to the pull through. This was worn around the waist beneath the jacket, with the knife tucked into the trouser pocket. Alternately it is sometimes seen hanging from belts by means of a loop with a 'D' ring attached. The white shoulder lanyard was not intended to carry anything specific, being more an item of uniform for certain

Regiments or Corps.

 

Tomo

 

Hi Tomo

 

You might want to read the thread in Andrew's first link above.

 

For instance:

 

:20, Joe Sweeney said:

 

Although use of the lanyard dates well into the 19th century the proper lanyard for use with the clasp knife dated to 1901 with pattern 5284a/1901, 11 June 1901(2). This pattern approved a series of lanyards acceptable for issue, all were plaited and all were off white. That is natural, non-bleached, flax with an appearance of white. It was up to the Corps how these were worn but invariably the clasp knife was worn in the left breast pocket with the lanyard around the left shoulder, as was the prescribed wear for at least Army Service Corps Horse Transport personnel(3).

 

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

 

[Tomo.T]

Thanks GT. I think this is a good example of practice evolving due to conditions of service and the experience of the men at the 'coal face'. It may well have been the intention to store the clasp knife in the breast pocket, on the end of a short lanyard, but this is not practical if you need to use the knife in a hurry. Also, there were many Corps and Regiments not issued with the shoulder lanyard, where did they keep theirs ?

 

Tomo

[Muerrisch]

1 hour ago, Tomo.T said:

Thanks GT. I think this is a good example of practice evolving due to conditions of service and the experience of the men at the 'coal face'. It may well have been the intention to store the clasp knife in the breast pocket, on the end of a short lanyard, but this is not practical if you need to use the knife in a hurry. Also, there were many Corps and Regiments not issued with the shoulder lanyard, where did they keep theirs ?

 

Tomo

 

Do check your facts:

the knife, clasp, with lanyard was a universal issue acording to Clothing Regs 1914, Free Kits, Table XVI

[Grovetown]

1 hour ago, Tomo.T said:

there were many Corps and Regiments not issued with the shoulder lanyard,

 

There weren't any. All men of all corps, inc. infantry, were notionally issued with one.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

[Tomo.T]

Strange that they are rarely worn in the photographs ?

 

Tomo

 

[PhilB]

2 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

 

Do check your facts:

the knife, clasp, with lanyard was a universal issue acording to Clothing Regs 1914, Free Kits, Table XVI

Would that be the single strand lanyard or the plaited one?

[GRANVILLE]

I have to admit to never having understood why such an unlikely place was chosen to keep a clasp knife i.e. the upper left breast pocket of the tunic. It makes accessing the knife about as awkward as can be and it would have made much more sense to simply have had it in the trouser pocket as so many naturally opted to do in the field. I don't dispute that the tunic pocket was where it was regulated to be kept but does anyone know what the rationale was behind this decision in the first place?

David 

[Muerrisch]

I have a confession to make, in that I read what I expected to see regarding the universal issue of clasp knife and lanyard.

 

If I had followed the dots properly I would have seen that there was a very notable exception in the CR 1914.

 

NO INFANTRY WERE THUS EQUIPPED!

 

Those more knowledgeable than me are sure that the infantry were issued the kit during the war, but my "proof" is non-existent.

 

Apologies.

[Tomo.T]

5 hours ago, Grovetown said:

 

There weren't any. All men of all corps, inc. infantry, were notionally issued with one.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

 

Perhaps GT has some proof for us ?

[Tomo.T]

9 hours ago, Grovetown said:

9 hours ago, Grovetown said:

pattern 5284a/1901, 11 June 1901(2). This pattern approved a series of lanyards acceptable for issue

 

 

Why was it necessary to have a series of lanyards if they all had to do the same thing ?

 

9 hours ago, Grovetown said:

It was up to the Corps how these were worn

 

They may not have been worn at the shoulder ?

[Tomo.T]

9 hours ago, Grovetown said:

On 16/01/2011 at 23:20, Joe Sweeney said:

the clasp knife was worn in the left breast pocket with the lanyard around the left shoulder, as was the prescribed wear for at least Army Service Corps Horse Transport personnel(3).

 

 

 

Hardly universal is it ?

[Grovetown]

On 9/23/2016 at 20:46, Muerrisch said:

a very notable exception in the CR 1914.

 

NO INFANTRY WERE THUS EQUIPPED!

 

Those more knowledgeable than me are sure that the infantry were issued the kit during the war, but my "proof" is non-existent.

 

 

On 9/23/2016 at 22:28, Tomo.T said:

 

Perhaps GT has some proof for us ?

 

With respect David, as Joe - who would be turning in the proverbial - repeatedly iterated, it's not in the Clothing Regulations 1914; but features in the Regulations for Mobilization 1914.

 

 

On 9/23/2016 at 16:43, Tomo.T said:

Strange that they are rarely worn in the photographs ?

 

 

No. Never.

 

 

 

 

Edited 4 October , 2016 by Grovetown

[Tomo.T]

With respect Sir, I did not say never and I maintain that the vast majority of photographs of soldiers in the Great War do not show lanyards worn at the shoulder.

 

My apologies to Mr Sweeney.

[Grovetown]

12 minutes ago, Tomo.T said:

 

Why was it necessary to have a series of lanyards if they all had to do the same thing ?

 

I don't know. Shame you can't ask the people who instituted three patterns of lanyard.

 

12 minutes ago, Tomo.T said:

They may not have been worn at the shoulder ?

 

See pictures above - all of infantry.

 

10 minutes ago, Tomo.T said:

 

Hardly universal is it ?

 

See post re; Regulations for Mobilization 1914 above.

 

The thing in this forum is to stop - as some prolificly posting narcissistic personality disorders (not you) can't - worrying about being right, as in an argument, and simply focus on being correct. It's not a competition.

 

Cheers!

 

GT.

 

[Tomo.T]

The thing abut this forum is to discuss rigidly held views that don't seem to make any sense.

 

Cheers.

[Grovetown]

6 hours ago, Tomo.T said:

Strange that they are rarely worn in the photographs ?

3 minutes ago, Tomo.T said:

With respect Sir, I did not say never and I maintain that the vast majority of photographs of soldiers in the Great War do not show lanyards worn at the shoulder.

 

 

My "Never" was sarcastic. You said "rarely".

 

If you search the forum, read previous links, you will find threads discussing this where people queried the same to be met by photographs - the only "proof", as you ask for - of, for example, RA units wearing none, and infantry groups with 100% present. Like the QWRs above.

 

1 minute ago, Tomo.T said:

The thing abut this forum is to discuss rigidly held views that don't seem to make any sense.

 

We're not discussing "views" - we're not discussing my opinions - it's a matter of facts

 

The only views - opinions - held and without "proof" so far are yours. I keep offering proof, you keep offering views. Remember that "lance corporal is a rank" thing you were so definite about...

 

I could post pictures, in my collection, of infantry (all corps, in fact), wearing them all day.

 

But it's not a competition. 

 

 

 

[Tomo.T]

It seems to me we're not discussing anything. Good night to you.

[PhilB]

Hope we`re feeling less tetchy this morning, gentlemen.

Post #17 shows men wearing the single strand lanyard which does seem unusual, the plaited lanyard being more normal. As the single and plaited lanyards are quite different in length, one assumes they must be for different purposes? The men look to have only flat items in the pocket (paybooks?) apart from the sergeant. I certainly wouldn`t want to carry a jacknife around all day bouncing in my breast pocket!

[Tomo.T]

Hi Phil ,Apparently there are 6 types of approved lanyard not 3,( plus any amount of home made ones ) All of the approved ones were originally intended to accompany the clasp knife in the LH breast pocket. The short white braided one, most commonly seen on members of the Artillery and the ASC is the one I have. The free end of this item is so short that attaching the knife to it is a nonsense. However I have got round this by fitting a brass sprung clip so that the knife can be removed easily for use and then replaced. In actual fact, this massive knife sits quite happily in its capacious khaki serge home and you really wouldn't know it was there. ( landing on it might be a different matter. )

 

A longer lanyard would be an advantage as you could use the knife whilst still attached, but it was down to individual Corps and Regiments to choose which one best suited their needs. Other alternatives include the belt loop and 'D' ring, and the waist cord, the problem with the latter is that it was a 2nd WW issue item,( I was led astray by dodgy descriptions) Whether any were used in WW1 I have yet to discover.

 

I still don't see front line Infantry units wearing white lanyards, and yet these soldiers would be most likely to benefit from having them. One would have thought a drab coloured one would have been  provided. This remains a mystery.

 

Tomo

 

 

 

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Tomo,

 

Here are two examples of the Clasp Knife in actual use, by both a Gunner and an Airman.

 

Regards,

LF