Trying to find which Regiment was in which Division and then which Corps.

[Kitty55]

A year later to my last post on here recommending a book and having read a lot more on the War I'm still looking for that one book.

A book which will explain which Regiment was in which Division and then which Corps but I cann't seem to find it.

I've got nearly all of Ray Westlake's now - wonderful for finding out where certain Regiments were - in Gallipoli; the Somme; 1914 & early 1915.

Andrew Rawson, Peter Liddle, Peter Hart, Nigel Cave, Gary Sheffield  - all explain various aspects, corps, divisions and where certain regiments etc. were but nobody seems to say what regiment was in what division or what corps.

Can anyone tell me if there is such a book at all - I've spent a year looking for one and have gained a lot of knowledge via many books (even had a new book case built for them all) but I still cann't find a book which explains it all in easy terms.

I know you can find it on the internet but that then means I have to stay up too late as my internet doesn't work that well at peak times and so many times I'll be in the middle of my research just for everything to get cut off. Besides which I'm old enough to enjoy either reading a book in bed or in front of my open fire during the cold windy months coming. And with an operation coming up at the end of the month I'd like one to read in hospital.

So do any of you have any suggestions - though please make it an easy read like the authors I've already memtioned in this posting.

[Gareth Davies]

If you don't want to use Chris Baker's excellent The Long Long Trail website http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/ have a look at British Regiments 1914 - 1918 by Brig E A James, and the 4 volumes of Order of Battle of Divisions.

[Kitty55]

Hi Gareth

I agree Chris Baker's site is wonderful my only problem is I can't always access it unfortunately due to my bad internet connection here in the sticks. Can't even use my iPad at home due to no connection for apple here! Well it lasts all of 5 minutes at a time - so annoying.

However thanks for the suggested book.

I've already got all of Ray Westlake's and Andrew Rawson's which help me a lot..

It's just with over 2,000 soldiers to research I'm getting very muddle headed with Regiments; Divisions and Corps. - I don't have any problems regarding Battalions though.

I am definitely not a war historian, just a local historian who wanted to tell some stories of the town's soldiers and then be able to place where they were in regard to their story. It's easy to do if they were wounded or killed (even easier) but when they came back without any harm they are almost impossible to trace, unless of course findmypast, ancestry or geneolist have them on their military lists. Even the forces war records and naval & military sites can’t help unless I know the soldier's service number. Medal cards always give their number but then again some soldiers didn't live in town when they joined and there are many duplicate names who are even in the same regiment etc. I've tried checking against the Absentee lists too and asking relatives - it always amazes me how they don't know their soldiers service number which was on the back of his medals.

Hence my book is taking so long to write – on the positive side I’ve found several brilliant quirky stories that I don’t believe have ever been published before.

Anyone else got a book they love on WWI which is easy to understand?

 

thanks and take care, Kitty

[John(txic)]

Kitty,

 

Looking at contemporary local newspapers will be a great help - you'll learn a lot from those.

[TEW]

I've always found it difficult to determine which Corps a particular Division was in at any particular time. My lond-winded way has been to find a Divisional diary and see which Corps was getting copies of Operation Orders etc or read through the diary to find mention of eg DDMS XIV corps visited today.

 

I have seen on some occasions that a division may hop from corps to corps to corps in a matter of a few weeks.

 

I have also noted that there are forum members who seem to automatically know (and are correct) which corps a division was with at any given time so I'd love to know how they do it!

TEW

[Gareth Davies]

I use the books that I mentioned in post #2 and the LLT.

[Phil Evans]

Kitty,

 

For 1917, I was going to point you in the direction of WO 95/5468, which I downloaded from the National Archives site back in 2010. Strangely though, it now seems to have been taken off of their system.

 

Phil

[spof]

Phil

 

That would have been the original digitisation. Those files were removed and replaced when WO 95 was redigitised a few years ago.

 

Glen

 

 

[Phil Evans]

Glen,

 

You would have thought that they would keep it in their online catalogue, having gone to the trouble of scanning it in the first place. I had always hoped that they were going to expand it to cover the other years.

Do you know if they are going to re-release it in the future as they work through WO 95?

 

Phil

[spof]

Phil

 

If you recall the old service records on microfilm then the old war diary scans also seem to be a whole roll of microfilm which is why you could get an entire brigade in one download. The new search system, colour digitisation and the fact a lot of people interested in the 1/6 Loamshires didn't want the other 3 battalions in the brigade is the reason for the change.

 

No idea if it will be re-released.

 

Glen

[Guest]

I don't believe there is a single volume that will provide the chain of Battalions, Brigades, Divisions, Corps. As already mentioned, the first three categories are well served by the LLT and British Regiments 1914-1918. The Division into Corps is more challenging. I would echo post #2 with some small additions....

 

Battalions, Brigades and Divisions (with dates). The easiest source is the LLT (free online) which is based on information also contained in Brig A E James "British Regiments 1914-1918" which is still available click for £8.80 if a hard copy is more useful. It shows the Brigade and Divisions that every battalion served in, with dates. It has very few errors and is an extremely reliable reference book. 

 

There are a number of Order of Battle of Divisions (ORBAT) which provide more detail on the Support Arms (RE, RA, ASC etc) in the books below, also available here click. These will show the original formations and the changes within them during the whole war. Heavily annotated and provide a much more detailed picture particularly of the non-infantry units. Part 4 is probably the best for Corps.

 

History of the Great War: Order of Battle of Divisions Part 1: .......................Regular Divisions

History of the Great War: Order of Battle of Divisions Part 2A:.....................Territorial Force  Mounted Divs and TF Divs 42-56

History of the Great War: Order of Battle of Divisions Part 2B:.....................Territorial Force: TF Divs 57-69, 71-75

History of the Great War: Order of Battle of Divisions Part 3A.......................New Army Divisions 9-26

History of the Great War: Order of Battle of Divisions Part 3B ......................New Army Divisions 30 - 41  & 63 

History of the Great War: Order of Battle of Divisions Part 4.........................The Army Council, GHQs, Armies and Corps including Tank Corps

History of the Great War: Order of Battle of Divisions Part 5A.......................

History of the Great War: Order of Battle of Divisions Part 5B......................Indian Army Divisions

 

There are two other books that are useful for Divisions:

 

Kitchener's Army by Ray Westlake.............................click. (£3.48).................New Army Divisions

Your Country Needs You by Martin Middlebrook.......click (£4.53 on Kindle)...All Infantry Divisions (Regular, TF and New Army)

 

For Corps Level and which Division came under the command of which Corps, the Appendices in the Official History of the War are useful guides and provide a reasonably good idea during the major Battles and Offensives. A number of these are available online and are all in reprint.  MG

Edited 6 October , 2016 by Guest

[Kitty55]

Hi Fellas

O.K. think I've found a way to find out - may seem weird to you lot but as I said I'm no war historian and to be honest it's the people I'm interested in not the actual fighting. Sorry if that might upset some of you but it's the truth. Hence I've resigned myself to this route.

1. Check Battalion & Regiment via Ray Westlake then Andrew Rawson,

2. See if I can find any record of the soldier on Findmypast & Ancestry for any full record;

3. then Genealogist for any casualty info which also has their service number on.

4. Then searching Forces War Records and the Naval & Military Site (yes I'm a member of them all) and

5. Finally staying up very late (3am onwards) once a week to be able to access the Long Trail without to many interruptions in my connection.

6. Check movements of battalions and regiments on the Naval & Military Site in their book section – so far it’s been very helpful and as it’s all part of the membership I have for the present is cheaper than trying to buy the books you have suggested Gareth – although I have put them in My eBay watch list and Amazon basket in case I ever come into a windfall as my birthday has already gone. However thanks for the suggestion.

To John (tixc)

I’ve got 90 years of my local paper that I’ve photographed (with their permission) and have gone through all the war years with a fine tooth comb as they say.

In other words any soldier or event connected with the First World War and Dereham is already logged and sorted into various sections. i.e. Life in Town – just what it says, the town council, fund raising, Dereham’s military hospital, Troops in Town – various regiments that were stationed in Dereham; From the Front – news and letters, either from or about the soldiers; The Battle Front/World at Large – a place to explain very briefly what was happening at the front in regards to a Dereham cenotaph hero, a promotion, deed of heroism etc. and finally a section called Gladys’ Gossip – who was a character that I used when doing town walks and always covered local gossip and scandal. She also covers items that don’t necessarily fit anywhere else (i.e. when bullocks ran amok in town and then some regimental horse escaped doing quite a bit of damage).

On each double page there is also either a Town Inhabitant (Life in Town); I was in Town (Troops in Town); Cenotaph Hero; Town Soldier etc. as well as pages dedicated to certain families in town sometimes with 7 – 11 boys in the forces. Added to which I’ve covered families that were related in Family Ties; A Fighting Family; Mates in Arms etc.

And finally - You all may wonder how I am typing this now - well I do it in word first and then just transfer it - that way I don't lose everything I've type when the connection goes down.

Here is a  preview of a Life in Town double page from Chapter 1 – The 1910’s Dereham

[Kitty55]

O.K.

Stuck again if the L.L.T doesn't stand for the Long, Long Trail.

Thanks for all the advice but please keep ideas coming for easy down to earth books on WWI.

 

Here's another page involving one of the soldiers who not only sent letters home from the Front during the First World War but also from the Boer War. There were approx. 40 soldiers from town in the Boer War and just over 30 of them at the outbreak of the First were in the reservists and thus several went off with the BEF's first and second lot in August 1914 - especially the engineers and RAMC members.

I've put as many photos and pictures in as I've been able to as I have over 200 post cards just concerning the First World War in town, also roughly 100 soldier's portraits and over another 3,000 of Dereham.

This is the second page on Tom Bone in Chapter One, he also has another in Chapter Two (1914) when he was discharged with dental cavities and varicose veins.

 

Both these pages are under my copyright, so please don't copy them. - N.B. They haven't been proof read yet either.

 

thanks and take care, Kitty

[Kitty55]

Hi Fellas

Now that I've got the books suggested - i,e. Order of Battle of Divisions set, I can see why you all recommended them.

I've also found Ray Westlake, Andrew Rawson and Simon Fowler are all useful for finding where soldiers were and when.

As well as these I find that the war diaries on N&M and other sites useful too.

And of course the LLT.

Now it's just a matter of cross referencing over 1,500 soldiers and their families.

That'll keep me busy for awhile.

 

thanks and take care, Kitty

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Kitty

 

A Record of the Battles and Engagements of the British Armies in France and Flanders, 1914-1918, also by E A James, will tell you which Divisions were in which Corps and Armies for the main battles of the war, although be aware that during the Battles of the Somme, for example, many Divisions switched Corps a few times, sometimes after only a few days. The book should be available, in a modern reprint, from Naval & Military Press.

 

Files WO95/5467 to 5469 contain detailed orders of battle for France at roughly monthly intervals. Subsequent files have similar data for other theatres of war. You may have to visit Kew for these, though.

 

If you have a particular unit which was Corps or Army Troops and you want to know more, send me a PM and I'll share my own information with you.

 

Ron

Edit: For ASC units, Army Service Corps 1902-1918 by Col Mike Young is indispensable. Sadly Mike passed away last week but many Pals can testify to his knowledge and willingness to help.

Edited 11 November , 2016 by Ron Clifton

[Kitty55]

Hi Ron

Thanks for the info - I was advised to buy that book as well as the others I mentioned and did straight away as I found a new copy at a very cheap price, only £2. at a car boot fair the same week - so now I'm going through all my soldiers again to find and pin point where they were and when.

 

The book is slowly coming together.

 

One day I might be well enough to go on holiday and visit Kew for a few days.

 

thanks and take care, Kitty