Irish in Britain in the First World War

[Ronan McGreevy]

I am the writer of Wherever the Firing Line Extends: Ireland and the Western Front which tells the story of the Irish in the First World War through the monuments left behind. 

I wrote this in The Irish Post last week about the Irish in Britain who fought in the First World War. 

 

 

[The Scorer]

I'd like to read this article, but in some places, the typeface is too small.

 

Do you have a link to the page, please?

 

Thank you.

 

 

[museumtom]

Good man Ronan!

Keep up the good work. 

Kind regards.

 Tom.

[Don]

Ditto

 

Gerry

[Guest]

The number of Irish-born in England peaked in 1861 at around 6% of the population. Thereafter every decennial Census showed declining numbers of Irish-born as the population integrated. Assuming the English-born descendants of the Irish-born grew at the same rate as the rest of England, it is a reasonable assumption that 6% of the Englishmen who were conscripted in 1916-18 were of Irish descent. This might suggest a number close to 150,000 men served who were of Irish descent but were born in England. 

 

It is interesting that the article talks of the 'neglected story of the Irish in Britain during WWI'. My underlining. 

 

The Tyneside Irish, London Irish and Liverpool Irish all have fine published histories. In addition there are at least half a dozen books on the various Irish formations including a few published in recent years. The Irish regiments were also well served by their authors in the immediate post-war period, producing some of the finest regimental histories. The History of the Connaught Rangers for example is a massive three volumes and would take some beating in terms of scope.  Contrast this with some English and Scottish Regiments and battalions that have no published histories. 

 

My perception is that the Irish  contribution to the Great War is very well documented. The only shortfall might be the men of Irish descent who served in non-Irish regiments, as this area is difficult to research. What perhaps is a more neglected story is the many thousands of Englishmen drafted into Irish regiments to shore up Irish units particularly those from the southern Irish counties. MG

 

 

 

 

Edited 13 December , 2016 by Guest

[Ronan McGreevy]

10 hours ago, The Scorer said:

I'd like to read this article, but in some places, the typeface is too small.

 

Do you have a link to the page, please?

 

Thank you.

 

 

Hi I'll send it in two parts presently so you can read it more clearly. Regards, Ronan 

[David Filsell]

I'm pretty sure he means neglected in Ireland and more specifically (and in the opinion of some arguably) the south until fairly recently.

As a youth in Galway I met a man who told me of his service in the British Army in WW1 but had never let it be knownafter moving there. He also taught me the words of They're Hanging Kevin Barry in the Morning and said an Englishman singing in a Dublin bar would never need to buy a drink  all evening.

 

 The author can speak for himself, but neglect of recognition of Irishmens' service until recently  - as such service has been recognised as history and is not simply reviled as treachery - is made clear in  a most worthwhile book.

 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, David Filsell said:

I'm pretty sure he means neglected in Ireland and more specifically (and in the opinion of some arguably) the south until fairly recently.

As a youth in Galway I met a man who told me of his service in the British Army in WW1 but had never let it be knownafter moving there. He also taught me the words of They're Hanging Kevin Barry in the Morning and said an Englishman singing in a Dublin bar would never need to buy a drink  all evening.

 

 The author can speak for himself, but neglect of recognition of Irishmens' service until recently  - as such service has been recognised as history and is not simply reviled as treachery - is made clear in  a most worthwhile book.

 

 

 The tags on this thread start with the Tyneside Irish, who are far from neglected.  If the point is that they are neglected in Eire, I think the article needs some refinement or clarification, particularly in light of the fact it is deliberately recycled on a UK domiciled website by the author. My concerns are that it gives a distorted view that is not representative of the UK perception of Ireland's rather magnificent contribution to the Great War. IThe Irish in the Great War are far from neglected.  MG

Edited 14 December , 2016 by Guest

[Ken Lees]

16 hours ago, QGE said:

 

... The Tyneside Irish, London Irish and Liverpool Irish all have fine published histories....

 

 

 

Do the Liverpool Irish really have a published history?

 

To add another to the above list, the History of the Irish Guards by Rudyard Kipling is a substantial (2 volume), well-written work.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Ken Lees said:

 

Do the Liverpool Irish really have a published history?

 

Wyrall's substantial three volumes on the King's Liverpool regiment covers them in some detail including a detailed roll of honour. Its only shortcoming is the rather limited index.  By contrast some 'Regimental' histories only cover the regular battalions and omit the TF and New Army Battalions who, by extension generally have 'neglected' histories. Some regiments had to wait nearly 40 years before their Great War histories were published and some are still waiting.

 

By the standards of the historiography of the Great War, the Irish did rather well in my view. All the Irish 'regimental' histories managed to cover the New Army battalions and some regiments such as the Royal Munster Fusiliers had more than one published history. Some New Amy Irish battalions have stand alone histories (5th Connaught Rangers) and even down to Company level (D Coy 7th RDF by Hanna - the Pals at Suvla Bay) which is quite rare -  and stand alone volumes such as Suvla Bay and After by Juvenis. The Irish Divisions also fared well having dedicated published histories, something that can not be said for quite a number of Divisions. Hitchcock's "Stand To" - A Diary in the Trenches is regarded as a classic. I can only think of the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers' many New Army battalions as being a bit short-changed in their single-volume Regimental history, however the history of the Ulster Division more than compensates. 

 

The regular Irish battalions in non-Irish formation were also treated well if the history of the 29th Division is any indication. 

 

Added to this are the more recent

 

Tyneside Irish by GWF member John Sheen

Befast Boys by Grayson

Field of Bones by Orr

Orange Green and Khaki by Tom Johnstone,  

Neither Unionist Nor Nationalist by Stephen Sandford

Irish Regiments in the Great War: Discipline and Morale by Bowman

Ireland's unknown Soldiers: The 16th (Irish) Division in the Great War by Denman

and a  detailed study of Irish recruiting by Perry

 a number of articles by Terence Denman

 

etc...adding to the dozen or so Regimental or battalion histories and the three orgininal divisional histories comes to around 25 books solely focused on Irish units in the Great War. 

 

They were well served and I think hardly neglected by historians. MG

 

Edit. We could add "At War with the 16th Irish Division 1914-1918: The Staniforth Letters"

 

Edited 14 December , 2016 by Guest

[squirrel]

Are you able to let me have any details on where a published history of the 18th County of London battalion London Irish Rifles (1/18th,/2/18th,/3/18th) in WW1 can be obtained? Grateful for any assistance.

[Guest]

On 14/12/2016 at 20:29, squirrel said:

Are you able to let me have any details on where a published history of the 18th County of London battalion London Irish Rifles (1/18th,/2/18th,/3/18th) in WW1 can be obtained? Grateful for any assistance.

 

There are three main volumes that I am aware of - they are reasonably scarce although the main history is thankfully now online (well, up to 1917). I have no idea where you might source them outside a major library and none are on Abe.books or have been for some time. 

 

The London Irish Rifles: The 1/18th Bn London Regiment War History 1914-1919.  Published in 1973. vi, 236 pp by Sidney F Major. (I think privately published). Available in the IWM collection library and here click where it has been partially digitised online.  

The London Irish Rifles, 18th Bn London Regiment TF: A Brief History of the regiment and Its Work at the Front -  published 1918 (privately published)

London Irish 1859-1959: The Regimental Centenary By Lt Col P M Corbally Glasgow. The Paramount Press 1959

 

Also:

The Great Push: An Episode of the Great War by Patrick MacGill (a Stretcher Bearer with 1/18th Bn at Loos) pub 1916

Signal Corporal: The Story of the 2nd Bn London Irish Rifles in the First World War by W May (pub 1972)

The Footballer at Loos: A Story of the 1st Bn London Irish Rifles in the First World War by Ed Harris

 

Their story has also been woven into "faction" in novel form::

Goodbye Picadilly 1(London Irish Rifles)

Farewell Leicester Square 2( London Irish Rifles)

 

The transcribed diaries are here click. The link also includes excerpts from the Divisonal history. Hardly 'neglected'. 

 

Separately the formations that the 1/18th and 2/18th served in, namely the 47th Div and 60th Div have decent published histories that cover the Battalions. As I am sure you know the 2/18th Bn didn't quite make it to the end of the War, being disbanded in the near east with the men being dispersed to the regular battalions of the Royal Irish Regt and Royal Irish Fusiliers.

 

3/18th is not covered in any history to my knowledge having been based in the UK throughout and becoming the 18th Reserve Bn in 1916. I very much doubt that it was full of expatriate Irishmen. I am not sure that the 3/18th Bn carried the title of London Irish. Most 3rd lines of London Regiments don't appear to have carried the appointments and titles to my knowledge, having largely been converted to Reserve battalions serving more than just their 'parent' organisations. The exception if memory servers were the 3rd lines of the City of London Battalions, London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers) although they morphed into their 2nd Lines . It is quite complex. MG

 

 

[David Filsell]

 

I don't disagree at all. I was speaking of what I believe many perceive to be an Irish view of the situation. Let me just add that from a writing a recent review of a book about Ireland during the Great War,  my criticism of the lack of recognition in the Republic of Irish Soldiers in the British Army was swiftly rebutted by accusation that I as an Englishman I had no knowledge of the situation. 

[museumtom]

Thanks for all the help lads and lassies, again a successful mission.

May be so bold as to ask what you think of this unfindable soldier.

Kind regards.

Tom.

[museumtom]

There is a Sgt Michael Grace, RIFus, MIC says his  number was 3143.

[ss002d6252]

6 minutes ago, museumtom said:

There is a Sgt Michael Grace, RIFus, MIC says his  number was 3143.

He survived as a a POW

Craig

[museumtom]

Nice one Craig! It would have taken me the rest of my life to get that.

Thank you kindly indeed.

 Kind regards.

 Tom.

[squirrel]

23 hours ago, QGE said:

 

There are three main volumes that I am aware of - they are reasonably scarce although the main history is thankfully now online (well, up to 1917). I have no idea where you might source them outside a major library and none are on Abe.books or have been for some time. 

 

The London Irish Rifles: The 1/18th Bn London Regiment War History 1914-1919.  Published in 1973. vi, 236 pp by Sidney F Major. (I think privately published). Available in the IWM collection library and here click where it has been partially digitised online.  

The London Irish Rifles, 18th Bn London Regiment TF: A Brief History of the regiment and Its Work at the Front -  published 1918 (privately published)

London Irish 1859-1959: The Regimental Centenary By Lt Col P M Corbally Glasgow. The Paramount Press 1959

 

Also:

The Great Push: An Episode of the Great War by Patrick MacGill (a Stretcher Bearer with 1/18th Bn at Loos) pub 1916

Signal Corporal: The Story of the 2nd Bn London Irish Rifles in the First World War by W May (pub 1972)

The Footballer at Loos: A Story of the 1st Bn London Irish Rifles in the First World War by Ed Harris

 

Their story has also been woven into "faction" in novel form::

Goodbye Picadilly 1(London Irish Rifles)

Farewell Leicester Square 2( London Irish Rifles)

 

The transcribed diaries are here click. The link also includes excerpts from the Divisonal history. Hardly 'neglected'. 

 

Separately the formations that the 1/18th and 2/18th served in, namely the 47th Div and 60th Div have decent published histories that cover the Battalions. As I am sure you know the 2/18th Bn didn't quite make it to the end of the War, being disbanded in the near east with the men being dispersed to the regular battalions of the Royal Irish Regt and Royal Irish Fusiliers.

 

3/18th is not covered in any history to my knowledge having been based in the UK throughout and becoming the 18th Reserve Bn in 1916. I very much doubt that it was full of expatriate Irishmen. I am not sure that the 3/18th Bn carried the title of London Irish. Most 3rd lines of London Regiments don't appear to have carried the appointments and titles to my knowledge, having largely been converted to Reserve battalions serving more than just their 'parent' organisations. The exception if memory servers were the 3rd lines of the City of London Battalions, London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers) although they morphed into their 2nd Lines . It is quite complex. MG

 

 

Thanks very much - the first three I have been trying to find in hard copy for some considerable time - I am aware of the one on the LIR website. MacGill's three books I have, The Amateur Army, The Red Horizon,The Great Push, two of them first editions and also his book, The Brown Brethren (1917) which is essentially a novel. I have the war diaries for 1/18th and 2/18th as well as the Divisional histories of 47th and 60th Divisions. There is also a further book,  Stand to Arms by G .Belton Cobb, written as a novel but believed to be a fairly accurate record of his experience with the London Irish. 3/18th carried the title of London Irish on formation in 1914 losing the reference when they became a Reserve Battalion.

Edited 15 December , 2016 by squirrel

[RichardOS]

QCE,

 

Thank you.

"..The transcribed diaries are here click. The link also includes excerpts from the Divisional history. Hardly 'neglected'. "

 

Actually the London Irish Rifles' (LIR) First World War story may well have been partially neglected within the LIR community itself (apart from the Loos bit, of course)..I've been transcribing Major and May's 1st and 2nd Battalion stories recently (and yes I have only got up to 1917 as yet)..and, of course, learnt a lot of new things (my granddad was in the CEF so what do I know). My recent reading of some of 2/18th's time in Palestine during Dec 1917 is a grim read indeed.

 

A couple of examples of possible memory loss within the LIR: 

- I'm not sure that LIR knew that the High Wood battle on 15th Sept 1916 saw the highest single death toll for the Regiment in its (now) 157 year history...and even worse for other London Regiment battalions.

- The LIR didn't know the background story of Lt Arthur Cunningham DCM, who was killed at High Wood - he was one of three brothers killed in the Great War, all born in Clonmel (only 1 is noted by CWGC as being born there).

 

Of course, the Irishman's contribution to the London Irish Rifles (edit - added) during the Second World War, including the 2nd Bttn's time with 38 (Irish) Brigade) is another story and possibly even more "neglected".. 40 battle honours during the Second War in Tunisia/Italy for a TA outfit should merit considerable attention.

 

Squirrel,

the LIR don't hold a copy of Major's history, Corbally's centenary version sometimes turns up, never heard of the third one - I was down at Kew yesterday looking at the war diaries, some of the war diary attachments are pretty interesting.

 

i attach a copy of a 3/18th picture...the titling may not be "official" but something to bear in mind 

 

best wishes

Richard 

Edited 15 December , 2016 by RichardOS

[Guest]

Richard, Thank you. The LIR appears to be in very safe hands.

 

I am not sure how one definitively proves (or disproves) whether a Regiment or a Battalion are neglected, or indeed whether the British born men of Irish extraction who served in the Great War are neglected. Perspective is relative to one's standpoint. If we stand back from this and look at the available material, the 'expatriate Irish' units (for want of a better word) seem to have attracted sufficient interest for all their histories to be recorded in print as well as related publications. If published material is any indication of whether a unit is neglected  (or remembered), these units have done reasonably well when compared to other regiments. It is an established fact that Irish recruiting virtually stopped in 1916; by extension, if these units were to sustain their Irish characteristics, the popular assumption is that the Irish diaspora born in England of Irish parents or grandparents dominated the later reinforcement drafts for these units. As already mentioned, these Irish battalions, regiments and Divisions (and the men who served in them) have rich histories. It is difficult therefore to understand why they are perceived to be neglected. 

 

Separately, and as a general point,  the popular perception that the expatriate Irish units were dominated by men of Irish extraction is I think very slightly misplaced. While their initial rank and file may well have had strong links to Ireland, it seems fairly clear that all 'Irish' units struggled to maintain their national characteristics throughout the war. This is very well documented in official papers and has been covered in detail in a few publications, notably by Stephen Sandford and earlier detailed work by Nicholas Perry who did some groundbreaking research in his 'Nationality in Irish Infantry Regiments". It is understandable why many would like to believe that national characteristics could be sustained; however the hard evidence of transfers of large English drafts to Irish regiments (starting as early as Sep 1914) slightly undermines this perception. Again this is well documented thanks to some detailed research by a few dedicated authors. That the 16th Irish Div and the 10th Irish Division lost their 'Irish' titles during the war probably tells us everything we need to know. the 2/18th Bn went the same way as many Irish Service Battalions; disbanded, with its residual members scattered to Regular battalions. This seems to suggest that the 2/18th were in a similar position, despite access to the single largest pool of conscripts (London) and were struggling to sustain numbers. It is also notable that the 3/18th, similar to most other 3rd line London Regiment battalions lost their unique identifiers, perhaps an indication that sustaining Post Office Rifles with Post Office Workers or Civil Service Rifles with Civil Servants or London Irish Rifles with London Irish was unsustainable in practice. 

 

As early as October 1916 Redmond requested that Irish born men in Scottish Regiments be transferred to Irish Regiments. The War Office quickly pointed out that it involves another question: if English conscripts serving in Irish regiments were transferred out (a reasonable counter). The net effect would be a sharp decline in effective strength across all Irish battalions. Irish units needed English conscripts. It is worth remembering that in mid 1916 Irishmen serving in Non-Irish regiments could ask to transfer to Irish regiments. 

 

There is little doubt that tens of thousands of English, Scots and Welsh born men of Irish extraction served in the Army during the War. Unfortunately Conscription would have scattered them across hundreds of units; These men are particularly difficult to trace as the military records simply did not record the birthplace of their parents and grandparents. The popular assumption that all men in, say the Tynesdie Irish were all of Irish extraction falls short of the reality brought about by conscription. If anything is neglected in this story, it is the Englishmen with no Irish connections who fought in Irish formations. Many were clearly proud to do so, and formed strong emotional bonds to their adoptive units, however we must not lose sight of that fact that a large proportion had no historical connection with Ireland. 

 

This should not be that surprising. Some recent research on the Cameronians and the Scots Guards based on the 1911 Census shows that pre-war both had exceptionally large proportions of their men born in England who would appear to have no connection with Scotland. 

 

Back to the LIR: I would be very interested to hear if there are any detailed recruiting records during the volunteer period and whether there is any evidence of the 1/18th or 2/18th receiving large drafts from other units, particularly in 1917-1918. After the disbanding of 2/18th and the re-naming of the 3/18th it is difficult to see any trace of 'London Irish' in the reinforcement chain.

 

Any mistakes are mine. MG

 

 

 

Edited 15 December , 2016 by Guest

[RichardOS]

Thank you again...in fact, my hands can be pretty shaky at the best of times.

 

The LIR museum recently had a visit from one of the aforementioned author/historians who was examining whether he could do some detailed study of the men who served with the London Irish Rifles during the Great War...we have a (hundreds of pages long - see photo below) nominal roll of men who joined up with the Regiment but whether we are able to unravel the various strands of their background may be beyond our wit and whim entirely.

 

"Neglect" might be defined in a number of different way. An example included concern being raised in the House of Commons during November 1915 by an Irish MP that the LIR's role at Loos in capturing Germans guns had been negated - instead pictures of the said guns on Horseguards had been published showing men from the 1/19th and 1/20th Bttns standing proudly beside them - both very fine battalions indeed, but no mention of 1/18th's role in the fighting on 25th Sept 1915 and subsequent days. 

 

best wishes

Edited 15 December , 2016 by RichardOS

[squirrel]

1/18th received a number of replacements from the Royal Irish Rifles in 1918.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, squirrel said:

1/18th received a number of replacements from the Royal Irish Rifles in 1918.

 Interesting. The RIRif in 1918 would have been short of Irishmen themselves.

 

Separately the 828 men on the LIR 1914-15 Star medal roll reveal 179 (22%) served with other regiments - predominantly other units of the London Regiment; somewhere between 1 in 4 and 1 in 5. 

 

Doing some basic frequency analysis on the surnames and comparing to frequency profiles of know English-born and known Irish-born reference data, the sample does not show characteristics typically associated with Irish populations. In fact it does the opposite. The profile is distinctly English. Unless all their Irish roots came from the product of an Irish mother and an English father (statistically unlikely for everyone in the sample) the data raises rather large questions as it does not fit popular assumptions.

 

The elephant in the room is that in typical Irish (and Scottish) population samples of the period we would expect to see a massive spike in the frequency of men whose name starts with the letter M. This is a very distinct characteristic peculiar to populations in the Celtic regions*. Typically 23-24% lie in this group compared to 8% in known English populations (or in simple terms three times more frequent). If the LIR were all of Irish extraction, we would expect to see the 'atavistic spike' in the Celtic M. If half had Irish genes from their father and half from their mother, we would expect the spike to be around 12% of the total - still significantly larger than a typical known English sample. With the 828 men on the LIR medal roll for 1914-15, the Celtic M is 8.3%. There are other more subtle characteristics peculiar to Irish-Celtic groups** that do not signal in the LIR data.  I suspect some sampling in the 1911 and 1901 Census would struggle to establish a high incidence of Irish roots one or two generations back. While some are beyond doubt of Irish extraction, the data suggests an extremely large English dilution. 

 

MG

 

* Based on large sampling of Irish Regiment data from 1911 Census as well as SDGW data for Irish Regiments where the subjects are known to have been born in Ireland. Dittos Scots for Scots-born. 

 

** Irish-Celtic surnames also have a relatively high incidence of names beginning with O compared to other groups from the British Isles. Of the 50 most common surnames of Irish-born in 1891, 13 begin with the letter O. Consequently we see a higher spike in letter O in Irish samples than Scottish or English samples - typically twice as many. It is one way of differentiating between blind samples of Scots and Irish and also helps reinforce confidence the presence of Irish-Celts in blind samples.  

Edited 15 December , 2016 by Guest

[RichardOS]

Thank you..good learning.

[Guest]

These three charts essentially highlight the underlying signature demographics of

 

1. Irish-born serving in Irish Regiments ..........21,083 names from SDGW

2. English-born serving in Irish Regiments*........6,481 names from SDGW

3. London Irish Rifles........................................3,433 names from BWM & VM roll

 

* The English-born groups are dominated by men sent in large drafts from English County Regiments starting in Sep 1914 and lasting throughout the war. Drafts as many as 500. The frequency distribution of the English-born serving in Irish regiments is almost exactly the same as the frequency distribution of the Control group of English-born serving exclusively in English regiments (not shown).

 

The data sets are robust and statistically relevant. The charts show surname frequency by initial letter. There are some consistent characteristics in the various sets. Irish-born serving in Irish Regiments v English Born serving in Irish Regiments:

• Frequency of the 'Celtic M' is the strongest in all Irish population sets. 19.5% in the Irish born serving in Irish regiments, more than double the English-born group.
• Frequency of letter O is always much higher in Irish groups than in English groups and competes with letters F, G, K L and R in frequency. Not seen in English groups
• Frequency sequence B,C,D falls in English groups but rises then falls in the Irish group
• Frequency sequence O,P,Q falls in the Irish group but rises and falls in the English group.
• Frequency of letter H is always strong in English groups and the jump from G to H is large. Less so in the Irish group 
• Frequency of series P,Q,R in English groups shows P and R at similar frequencies. The Irish group  has a much less frequent letter R
• Six pillars: B,C, H, M, S, W and characteristic of English groups - very similar frequencies - not seen in the Irish groups
• etc.

 

The frequency patterns are unique to different populations and act like a fingerprint or bar-code. Welsh, Scots, Irish and English populations all hav e their own unique patterns. By comparing a 'blind sample' with various known groups it is possible to detect strong similarities which reveal underlying consistencies in make-up.

 

It is fairly obvious that the London Irish Rifles' set has the distinctly strong  characteristics of an English-born group. Had the LIR group been dominated by expatriate Irishmen or men of Irish extraction, we would expect to see some if the Irish characteristics show through in the data. It hardly moves. Celtic M represents just 8% compared to 19.5% in known Irish born samples and 8.7% in the English-born serving in Irish Regiments. 

While we know for certain there were many men of Irish extraction serving in the London Irish Regiment, the data suggests that they were not in the majority through the war. 

 

Surname Frequency: % frequency of surnames beginning with letters A-Z

 

The London Irish Rifles's BWM & VM roll records the prior service of hundreds of its rank and file. Many hundreds saw service in other Regiments, particularly in 1917-1918 when conscription took away choice; over 700 of the 3,700 named individuals had prior service with other regiments. A random example is shown below which illustrates just how fluid the situation was. MG

 

 

Edited 16 December , 2016 by Guest