Book: "Ireland's Great War" by Kevin Myers

[Guest]

The Irish and Ireland in the Great War is an area of great interest for me. It is with some trepidation that I would say I would consider myself reasonably well informed and well read on the subject having researched a few aspects in some detail.  If anyone has read this book I would be very interested in their thoughts. I bought it some time ago and am about half way through, although hopping chapters. It has that rare quality in that parts are extremely interesting and thought provoking, yet other areas seem to be fundamentally flawed with some rather basic errors; The latter point is particularly perplexing as the authors' central thematic appears to be a desire to correct some of the mythology surrounding the Irish and the Great War. The result is that I can not work out which parts are accurate.

 

The author is extremely keen on highlighting a number of 'myths' and goes into some detail on a number of aspects.  He uses the word myth, or mythology some 77 times which perhaps provides an idea of how important this thematic is to the author. It must be a record for any book I own. If an author is determined to correct some perceived mythology, one might reasonably expect the book to be well researched. Expectations are high.

 

The book leans heavily on personal accounts which appear to be annotated simply as 'talk'. There are hardly any footnotes or end notes (in the Kindle edition). Stand-alone quotes are offered as facts rather than perspectives and very few are substantiated by cross-referencing. This makes it difficult to corroborate some of the claims and counter-claims. Accounts based on single sources are being used to offer an alternative view. Where he does make use of references, some are questionable; for example he describes Robert Rhodes James' book on Gallipoli as 'the standard work on the campaign' - something that the Gallipoli cognoscenti seem to strongly disagree with click. I am therefore slightly cautious. There are a number of counter-points the author makes that I would strongly agree with, however in the attempt to redress the perceived imbalances, I think he over-steers on occasion. 

 

His description of the Gallipoli Landing and the view of what is received wisdom is far off the mark in my opinion. His counter-claims are equally off the mark and make some fundamental errors and (I think) errors of interpretation. He tends to use secondary sources rather than primary material such as diaries. In his introduction he has the SS River Clyde in Suvla Bay for example. One then starts to question just how well researched this chapter was. On further reading, there are more errors on Gallipoli which makes one start to question the accuracy of other areas where the reader has less knowledge. This is equally perplexing as the material relating to the Irish at Gallipoli is freely available and there have already been a number of books on the subject. 

 

On a more positive note the parts that describe attitudes in Ireland towards ex-servicemen are illuminating. For example; a reception for an Irish VC winner was apparently boycotted. These aspects are particularly interesting for those who live beyond the borders of Eire. One can not imagine an English VC winner's reception being actively boycotted by local politicians. So far it is a very mixed bag and I fear that the good parts are being slightly undermined by some basic errors in areas that are easy to check. 

 

If anyone has any views on the book I would be interested to hear. MG

 

 

 

 

Edited 28 December , 2016 by Guest
edited for typos.

[depaor01]

I haven't read the book, but I'm a longtime devotee of the author who put his head above the parapet in his Irish Times columns over the years to highlight the national blind spot about participation in WW1. This was at a time when it was neither fashionable nor profitable. My advice to you having read your very detailed critique is to treat the book a bit like a Wikipedia entry. He does uncover fascinating dusty corners of history and his heart is squarely in it although he has been sadly silent recently. I expected his voice to be heard more given the centenary commemorations.

 

Dave

[Guest]

On 29/12/2016 at 01:55, depaor01 said:

I haven't read the book, but I'm a longtime devotee of the author who put his head above the parapet in his Irish Times columns over the years to highlight the national blind spot about participation in WW1. This was at a time when it was neither fashionable nor profitable. My advice to you having read your very detailed critique is to treat the book a bit like a Wikipedia entry. He does uncover fascinating dusty corners of history and his heart is squarely in it although he has been sadly silent recently. I expected his voice to be heard more given the centenary commemorations.

 

Dave

 

David

 

Thank you. I suspect perceptions naturally differ within Eire compared to those of us looking in from the outside. The 'national blind spot' is something that is difficult to understand unless one is on the ground. In England we have the opposite problem - if that is the right word - in that the commemoration has occasionally become a bit of a media circus. The opportunity to lay out a more measured history has occasionally been hijacked by poorly researched documentaries with sensationalist agendas that has in part added to the mythology of the Great War; While the BBC (principles: "to inform, educate and entertain") and supermarket adverts (principles: make money) focused on imaginary football matches during the 1914 truce, they conveniently forget their usual hand-wringing and the 71 British soldiers killed that day in France and Flanders; enough men to fill six imaginary football teams and enough graves to fill a substantial part of a football field. Britain has occasionally been commemorating things that simply didn't happen (in my view) while in Eire the Govt seems keen to avoid commemorating things that did happen. How did we get to this upside-down world.

 

Myers' book has a mass of interesting information which I would like to follow up - particularly the events in Ireland both during and in the immediate aftermath of the War. He mentions that 40% of Irish recruits were enlisted from Irish-born men in Great Britain rather than in Ireland for example which is interesting as I believe the participation of the Irish diaspora, and particularly those born in England, Scotland and Wales of Irish parents is considerably and consistently underestimated. If the Irish born in England peaked in 1861 at 3% and one assume the population of the diaspora's English-born offspring grew at the same rate of the English population, it means around 3% of the 4 million 'English' enlistments would probably have been of Irish descent; 120,000 men. One might add to this the 6% in Scotland of Irish descent or another 33,500....so adding these figures to the 134,000 know Irish enlistments gets us to around 287,500 'Irish' enlistments or more than double the 'Official' figures. It is always a highly emotive subject when discussing cross-border enlistments but it is something that I am fascinated by. 

 

So am am particularly interested in some of his other thematics. I am happy to read-through some of the errors on Gallipoli but I am looking for reassurance of the accuracy of the 'Irish' factors; from what I have gleaned from the internet he appears to be an evangelist among the Irish media in trying to rehabilitate the memorialisation of ex-servicemen. He draws some interesting parallels when the Easter Rising is mentioned, comparing the numbers killed and murdered in 1916  with those killed and murdered during the post war years after the British had left. Quite eye opening. Sensitive issues that require some delicate handling in print.

 

He tells us that the first British Soldier to fire a shot on the Western Front was Irish, and the last British soldier to die before Armistice was Irish, and these two event happened only a few miles apart despite being separated in time by over 4 years. MG

 

[seaforth78]

I had an old Irish friend who was born in New York (1937) but whose uncle was in the Royal Dublin Fusiliers who served prewar in the 2nd Battalion. When war came this time he went into the Royal Irish Rifles ending up as a Serjeant and survivied the war. He told my friend, his nephew, who were from Galway originally, that the post 1922 situation in Eire was such that old comrades dinners and meetings were frowned upon and never really spoke publicly about being in the British Army. Indeed, the author of the recent Regimental History of the RIRifles. James Taylor (2005) blamed the post war education system which endeavoured to brainwash the general populace into suppressing anything associated in a positive way concerning Britain and this included the contribution of Irish soldiers who resided in the south and anything that smacked of faintly being pro-British  I myself remember speaking to a Irish publican in Kyoto Japan back in 2000 who was anti English and emphatically denied that any of his ancestors ever served in the Army or Royal Navy which was I rather doutbful of. I was able to trace his great uncle and great-grandfather who in fact both served in the Royal Irish Regiment and one in the Connaught Rangers 1890-1918. When presented with these findings he dismissed them as 'lackeys of the British'. I think like the legend of the PO in 1916 where everyone in Ireland supposedly had a relative involved, I think, its high time the Irish given their great martial traditions, to  acknowledge with pride their 500 years plus service. 

Edited 28 December , 2016 by seaforth78

[Steven Broomfield]

Assuming we're talking about the same chap, Kevin Myers is an Irish journalist, whose work I have read in the Tottygraph, Irish Independent and Sunday Times. He tends to be right-of-centre and somewhat 'controversial'.

 

Not sure that adds a lot, but it might slightly explain his mindset.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Steven Broomfield said:

Assuming we're talking about the same chap, Kevin Myers is an Irish journalist, whose work I have read in the Tottygraph, Irish Independent and Sunday Times. He tends to be right-of-centre and somewhat 'controversial'.

 

Not sure that adds a lot, but it might slightly explain his mindset.

 Yes one and the same. Reading some of his articles makes me feel he would have been at home in GWF in the days of Custer and Hart when debate was slightly more robust. 

 

I don't mind strong opinion, as long as it can be substantiated with sound research, analysis and reasoning. I don't have a strong view on his book yet (just the Gallipoli section).

 

I am still trying to work out his agenda with regards to Irish perceptions of the Irish in the Great War. It seems to lurch from one side to another. He certainly seems to be vocal about the lack of commemoration of the Irish contribution to the War which is what interests me most. I would be interested to see what happened to the memorials. The Great War seems to have been a long and painful interval in the process of self determination. I have often wondered if the British Govt was happy to let the Irish formations wither on the vine in 1918 lest they ended up with two large, well trained, armed, opposing groups in the immediate aftermath. I have seen nothing on this aspect, but I guess any relevant Govt documentation would still be locked up.  

 

We have have debated quotes from two other Irish Author/Journalists in recent months on the GWF that on closer inspection appear to have not been supported in facts and better fit the requirements of journalists rather than authors of history. I am thinking of the allegations of the British murdering 300 German POWs and by association this war crime providing 'evidence' that the British were inclined to alleged mass execution of Irishmen in later years. The other article offered a view that the Irish in Britain (particularly those who served) were 'neglected' in the Great War; a view which seemed rather at odds with the large amount of published material. In both cases the idea of creating headlines seems to be a primary objective. Perhaps this is what is required to gain attention for the cause. This is not the preserve of Irish author/journalists of course, however one lives in hope that the simple plain truth is interesting enough without having to employ hyperbole. It is against this background that I am trying to establish of the Irish content of Myers' book is sufficiently robust as it is an area of very great interest. At one end of the scale we have some early authors and journalists trying to exaggerate the extent of the Irish contribution and at the other end a series of Governments that seem to have inflicted its population with state sponsored shame at having participated in the war. 

 

The Irish have been well served by many Irish historians and journalists in their long and often tragic history. I am slightly perplexed why the BBC hasn't dedicated some of its Great War coverage to the Irish; their Great War seems to be very rich in content and full of controversy. MG 

Edited 28 December , 2016 by Guest

[axial1680]

I am Irish but live in the UK, my Grandfather James Connell was in Royal Munster Fusiliers, 6th Btn and was one of the first to land at Suvla Bay, he was missing in action for a couple of days and partook in at least one bayonet charge against the Turks, he was later at Salonika in the Struma valley where he suffered badly with malaria. Two of his mothers cousins called Patrick Emmett from the same village died in the war. Grandfathers brother Simon joined the Royal Dublin Fusiliers under age, under the false name of one of these cousins and kicked out, then he joined the Connaught Rangers under my grandfathers name. He re joined in February 1919 and was imprisoned for life, commuted to ten years for his involvement in the 1920 Mutiny in India. Grandfather as far as I know fought for Irelands freedom under cover by training men, he then joined the Irish Free State Air Corps but died shortly after in May 1923 of TB. Earlier generations had also done army service in the Victorian period. From what I have found and heard, life was very hard in those days and most people were starving, taking the kings shilling gave you three meals a day and some money to send home to support your family and put shoes on your childrens feet. Also at the start of WW1 men were vaguely promised home rule if they fought against Germany. Another point I would like to make is the Indian Mutiny was in two parts, one at Jullundur and the other at Solan. Two mutiniers were shot at Solan and for his part in the mutiny there James Daley was executed. Jullundur was an entirely peaceful protest, but when you hear how the men involved including my great uncle Simon, if it was today there would be an outrage. One bit was left outside in the June sunshine surrounded with barbed wire for two whole days with no food or water or shelter. Made to wear leg irons for weeks and being fed bread and water, receiving beatings etc. This sort of thing did little to help any Anglo Irish relations at that period, yet many Irish still fought for Britain in WW2, including my father who after being kicked out of the Irish Army under age, joined the RAF in early 1939. 

I have had several arguments with some Irish keyboard warriors after they claim the WW1 men were un patriotic. I did see a post one day saying remember the 200,000 Irishmen that successive Irish Governments have tried to airbrush from history. Very true in my opinion. Sorry for the rambling post.

Paul

[axial1680]

Oh one other point I am certain on and have read various IRA member comments from the Independence war period, is that if there hadn't been all these soldiers coming back  from WW1 service there was no way the independence war would have been successful, it states they taught us discipline how to drill and fight, in the end the British trained their enemy well.

[depaor01]

Can't comment at length now, will post later, but I have original sources indicating that ex servicemen could march through Dublin proudly wearing their medals every year until 1927. After that the display of the Union flag had become controversial because of political comments about a gathering in College Green in Dublin.

The neglect happened, I believe very gradually. It culminated in 1969. After this there was no appetite here to have any discussions about the British Army at all, let alone acknowledging the Irishmen who served in it with disctinction in previous conflicts.

 

Dave

 

Edited 28 December , 2016 by depaor01

[Guest]

Pathe film footage of Remembrance day in Dublin in 1923 Click

Pathe film footage of Remembrance day in Dublin in 1924 Click

Pathe film footage of Remembrance day in Dublin in 1926 Click

Pathe film footage of Remembrance day in Dublin in 1927 Click

Pathe film footage of Remembrance day in Dublin in 1930 Click

Edited 28 December , 2016 by Guest

[depaor01]

That is amazing footage. Never seen that before. At the foot of the Wellington Monument. It seems to have been a temporary memorial cross, but there's nothing there today. 

Thanks for those.

 

Definitely a case for a permanent memorial in the same spot.

 

Dave

 

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, depaor01 said:

That is amazing footage. Never seen that before. At the foot of the Wellington Monument. It seems to have been a temporary memorial cross, but there's nothing there today. 

Thanks for those.

 

Definitely a case for a permanent memorial in the same spot.

 

Dave

 

 

If one saw the footage and didn't know the location one would be forgiven for thinking it was London. One of the films shows a British flag being raised above a grand building in Dublin and most show flags with the Union Jack in the upper left canton. ... During the mid 1920s, which was very surprising when I first saw it. I wonder if there is not a double mythology in that remembrance wasn't as suppressed in Ireland in the 1920s as we might think. Some of the late film footage appears to show tens of thousands of people and many hundreds wearing their medals. 

Edited 28 December , 2016 by Guest

[axial1680]

Wow what a turn out! Never seen that before. There looks to be thousands of men there full of medals, all proud Irishmen too. There needs to be something in Ireland similar and the bigots need educating. Going back to the Mutiny, the later 1939 Irish government treatment of the ex mutineers is a disgrace, talk about being awkward and making the men jump though hoops.

 

Edited 29 December , 2016 by axial1680

[KGB]

Myers is a (redacted) and that has nothing to do with my opinion of his revisionist Irish history. As for Ireland and its blind spot, look no further than Hume, in Derry, who denied his Dad had been in the trenches. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, KGB said:

Myers is a (redacted) and that has nothing to do with my opinion of his revisionist Irish history. As for Ireland and its blind spot, look no further than Hume, in Derry, who denied his Dad had been in the trenches. 

 Thanks for the thoughts. I m not entirely sure what the first sentence means. Please feel free to PM if you or the Mods think it is contentious as I am very interested in thought from anyone who is informed on Irish matters. MG

[depaor01]

11 hours ago, QGE said:

 

If one saw the footage and didn't know the location one would be forgiven for thinking it was London. One of the films shows a British flag being raised above a grand building in Dublin and most show flags with the Union Jack in the upper left canton. ... During the mid 1920s, which was very surprising when I first saw it. I wonder if there is not a double mythology in that remembrance wasn't as suppressed in Ireland in the 1920s as we might think. Some of the late film footage appears to show tens of thousands of people and many hundreds wearing their medals. 

 

1927 was the year it went sour. I'll find my source when I can get to a PC.

 

Dave

[djt]

I have not read his book (must buy a copy) but I was present at a lecture that Kevin Myers gave a few years ago and he made some assertions about RDF casualties at Gallipoli that I felt were errors of interpretation which seems to tally with what you said in your original post.

 

Best wishes,

Des

Edited 29 December , 2016 by djt

[Guest]

Just now, depaor01 said:

 

1927 was the year it went sour. I'll find my source when I can get to a PC.

 

Dave

 That is interesting, particularly in light of the 1930s footage. It is of course extremely difficult to get a feel of the relative size of the crowds. I note your point that the remembrance dwindled over time rather than collapsed. Very interested to see the relevant article on the catalysts for change in attitudes. 

 

Is there similar denial about the Irish nations rather disproportionately large contribution in the British Army in the 19th Century?. I recall seeing a nominal roll of the 2nd Bn 42nd Highlanders at Waterloo where over 90% were born in Ireland. Presumably helping beat Napoleon wasn't a bad thing? One only has to look at the very long list of battle honours from this period carried on the colours and appointments of southern Irish regiments to get a feel of their commitment. MG

[Guest]

52 minutes ago, djt said:

I have not read his book (must buy a copy) but I was present at a lecture that Kevin Myers gave a few years ago and he made some assertions about RDF casualties at Gallipoli that I felt were errors of interpretation which seems to tally with what you said in your original post.

 

Best wishes,

Des

 

It is worth comparing Keith Myers chapter on Gallipoli with Philip Lecane's rather wonderfully researched book "Beneath a Turkish Sky: The Royal Dublin Fusiliers and the Assault on Gallipoli" which provides a substantial body of eyewitness accounts. A remarkable piece of research. One would be forgiven for thinking Myers and Lecane were describing different battles. 

 

Myers seems wedded to the low CWGC data and uses this as an anchor to argue that the accounts of the landings were exaggerated or mythologised. He seems to ignore the possibilities of very large numbers of wounded. The RDF and RMF were roughly reduced by 50% in two days, yet fatalities are around 6% on the day of the landings. Myers seems fixated on the idea that fatal casualties are the only ones that really mattered. Personally I think the CWGC data is slightly flawed (not for the first time) as data was not collated for a few days and men recorded as killed on the 25th - 30th are just as likely to have been killed on 26th but only confirmed later. This was not uncommon but difficult to prove or disprove. Thankfully Lecane provides some hard evidence of this and makes the additional point that men who died of wounds on hospital ships would induce a lag in the data. 

 

What I see as Myers' understandble misinterpretation of data slightly concerns me as I don't know if a similar approach is used when discussing areas where I have no knowledge. MG

Edited 29 December , 2016 by Guest

[axial1680]

Have you ever read The Tenth (Irish) Division in Gallipoli, written in 1917/18 by Bryan Cooper who was a Major General? A bit old fashioned in places, but some good eyewitness accounts.

Paul 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, axial1680 said:

Have you ever read The Tenth (Irish) Division in Gallipoli, written in 1917/18 by Bryan Cooper who was a Major General? A bit old fashioned in places, but some good eyewitness accounts.

Paul 

 

 Yes. I think you can assume I have read every published history on the Irish Regiments and their formation in the Great War. Cooper was a Major. His book is uninspiring with some rather fanciful ideas about the Irishness of the Division. Full of inconsistencies between the narrative and the primary material. It is further compounded by Redmond's equally fanciful ideas in the introduction. I have banged on about this in other threads. 

 

According to Myers, Cooper was allegedly a 'chronic alcoholic' and eventually killed himself. While being an (alleged) alcoholic does not preclude one from writing good military history, the 10th Irish Division deserved a better author in my view. If Myers claims are true, Cooper had a rather tragic life and the istory may have been where he sought solace. My speculation. 

[museumtom]

For what it is worth. I set myself  the task to re-write Ireland's Memorial Records, fourteen years ago. It is now coming to fruition, with no small help from the lads and lassies on this forum I may add, thank you all!. For the past 8 years I have written to our last three Presidents, last three Taoisaigh and ten politicians. I even wrote to the Queen. 

The secretaries of Aras an Uacthtarain, the Presidents residence, snet a reply that I should apply for a Civil Servants job, knowing full well that there has been an embargo for the past eight years.

No replies from any of the Taoisaigh. No replies from any politicians.

I did get a reply from Buckingham Palace (fair play to the Queen) saying it was not the place of the Monarch to interfere with the running of a foreign state.

So you see, lads and lassies, its is still going on.

Notwithstanding this 'The 26 County casualties of The Great War' Will be published around April in Amazon. It is a not for profit project and I am waiting for the powers that be to crawl out of the woodwork and claim some credit.

  Cuimhnímis Iad-we will remember them.

Edited 29 December , 2016 by museumtom

[Guest]

Slightly related; I have a booklet from the Royal Munster Fusiliers Regimental Dinner Club dated 1962. Interestingly it mentions that the annual dinner held in Cork , open to all ranks was a 'popular innovation' and was 'well supported'. It also hints at the Regimental Association having to lean on the Army Benevolent Fund to support  'certain of our "hard cases"'. It is worth remembering that this is 40 years after the regiment was disbanded.

 

85 Officers are listed. Of these some 32 were living in Ireland of whom 12 were in Cork and 12 in Dublin, the others dispersed through Belfast, Mayo, Limerick, Tralee, Wicklow, Kinsale, and Bray.

 

Separately I have the postscript to the History of the RMF (another pamphlet dated 1957) listing 67 Officers who were serving in 1922, 52 of whom appear to have continued to serve, many in WWII, of whom 2 were KIA in WWII. It mentions that in 1950 periodic regimental dinners were held in Cork, Limerick, Tralee and Dublin  with as many as 20 Officers at some. In 1957 there were 92 members and 32 honorary members of the regimental Dinner Club.

 

Under the section of The old Comrades Association:

 

"Before the Second World War the Committee became uneasily conscious that touch was being lost between our members in Ireland and Headquarters in London was not as close as it might be. A suggested visit by Brigadier General Boyle was discouraged; political feeling still ran high, however your present President paid a short visit to Munster and had a warm welcome. After the war these visits recommenced and since 1949 they have been paid every other year."

 

It also mentions that the Disbanded Irish Regiments had an annual parade at the Cenotaph the first Sunday in June. 

Edited 29 December , 2016 by Guest

[Norrette]

3 hours ago, museumtom said:

Notwithstanding this 'The 26 County casualties of The Great War' Will be published around April in Amazon. It is a not for profit project...

 

Well done Tom, looking forward to it.

[museumtom]

Thank you Norrette, sadly Tyrone is one of the six counties that is not covered.

Kind regards.

 Tom.