KGB Posted 30 December , 2016 Share Posted 30 December , 2016 22 hours ago, QGE said: Thanks for the thoughts. I m not entirely sure what the first sentence means. Please feel free to PM if you or the Mods think it is contentious as I am very interested in thought from anyone who is informed on Irish matters. MG First sentence is me being uncomplimentary about Myers. It is a thorny topic but we are all adults so no matter what the view or opinion I hold anyone may express it (I am not a snowflake my word of the day). 1927, Higgins shot. The War of Independence is a tough one, my paternal Grandfather, like many, fought for Britain then against briefly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djt Posted 30 December , 2016 Share Posted 30 December , 2016 (edited) On 12/29/2016 at 12:03, QGE said: It is worth comparing Keith Myers chapter on Gallipoli with Philip Lecane's rather wonderfully researched book "Beneath a Turkish Sky: The Royal Dublin Fusiliers and the Assault on Gallipoli" which provides a substantial body of eyewitness accounts. A remarkable piece of research. One would be forgiven for thinking Myers and Lecane were describing different battles. Myers seems wedded to the low CWGC data and uses this as an anchor to argue that the accounts of the landings were exaggerated or mythologised. He seems to ignore the possibilities of very large numbers of wounded. The RDF and RMF were roughly reduced by 50% in two days, yet fatalities are around 6% on the day of the landings. Myers seems fixated on the idea that fatal casualties are the only ones that really mattered. Personally I think the CWGC data is slightly flawed (not for the first time) as data was not collated for a few days and men recorded as killed on the 25th - 30th are just as likely to have been killed on 26th but only confirmed later. This was not uncommon but difficult to prove or disprove. Thankfully Lecane provides some hard evidence of this and makes the additional point that men who died of wounds on hospital ships would induce a lag in the data. What I see as Myers' understandble misinterpretation of data slightly concerns me as I don't know if a similar approach is used when discussing areas where I have no knowledge. MG MG, I think you hit the nail on the head there. Regards, Des 23 hours ago, museumtom said: For what it is worth. I set myself the task to re-write Ireland's Memorial Records, fourteen years ago. It is now coming to fruition, with no small help from the lads and lassies on this forum I may add, thank you all!. For the past 8 years I have written to our last three Presidents, last three Taoisaigh and ten politicians. I even wrote to the Queen. The secretaries of Aras an Uacthtarain, the Presidents residence, snet a reply that I should apply for a Civil Servants job, knowing full well that there has been an embargo for the past eight years. No replies from any of the Taoisaigh. No replies from any politicians. I did get a reply from Buckingham Palace (fair play to the Queen) saying it was not the place of the Monarch to interfere with the running of a foreign state. So you see, lads and lassies, its is still going on. Notwithstanding this 'The 26 County casualties of The Great War' Will be published around April in Amazon. It is a not for profit project and I am waiting for the powers that be to crawl out of the woodwork and claim some credit. Cuimhnímis Iad-we will remember them. Tom, The book sounds great, I look forward to purchasing a copy. Regards, Des Edited 30 December , 2016 by djt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 30 December , 2016 Share Posted 30 December , 2016 9 minutes ago, djt said: MG, I think you hit the nail on the head there. Regards, Des Tom, The book sounds great, I look forward to purchasing a copy. Regards, Des Thank you kindly Des, it will be in at least nine volumes, all names in alphabetical order,. 6,000,000 words, 29,621 casualties and the RDF have 3430 killed from the 26 Counties. Kind regards. Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 30 December , 2016 Share Posted 30 December , 2016 34 minutes ago, museumtom said: Thank you kindly Des, it will be in at least nine volumes, all names in alphabetical order,. 6,000,000 words, 29,621 casualties and the RDF have 3430 killed from the 26 Counties. Kind regards. Tom. Tom - It sounds fascinating and I will definitely be buying copies. It will be available on Kindle and therefore searchable? Would you be kind enough to outline the contents i.e what level of data we might expect on each man - I assume the level of info varies but what would we expect on average? Does it go further than CWGC and SDGW (I assume it does). etc. MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 30 December , 2016 Share Posted 30 December , 2016 Besides SDGW, CWGC, IMR, etc, it would include any mention in Irish publications pre 1923, including newspapers, books. It will include the location in newspapers, books, and Rolls of honour of images of deceased soldiers, and officers, nurses etc, over 17,000 images have been found so far. Although these images are noted they are not used due to potential copyright issues. Criteria for inclusion;- Born in the 26 Counties. Lived in the 26 Counties. Next of kin born in or lived in the 26 Counties. It also includes all WW1 personnel buried in the 26 counties whether they are from here or not. Known birth locations- 26361. Unknown birth locations-3257. Born in the 26 counties-24587. Kind regards. Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 30 December , 2016 Share Posted 30 December , 2016 (edited) It would include over 400 U.S.Irishmen ( I know I have missed some, its the nature of the U.S. beast). and just under 1,000 Australian Irishmen. The other armies, South African, NZEF, Canadians etc, are also covered. Sorry I forgot to mention, I know nothing at all about a kindle. I'll have to ask the little 'uns lots of questions about it and come back to you on it. Its a mystery to me, sorry. Kind regards. Tom. Edited 30 December , 2016 by museumtom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depaor01 Posted 31 December , 2016 Share Posted 31 December , 2016 Here is a piece I wrote for a website I helped create a while ago. It gives quotes and dated sources that can be retrieved (you will need an Irish Newspaper Archive subscription to see the original articles. These are available through a lot of libraries): "...newspaper articles around Remembrance Day in the years immediately following the war showed, in the main, a respect towards the commemoration of the Irish war dead that is surprising considering the developing political situation in Ireland: 'The two minutes’ silence in recognition of the first anniversary of Armistice Day proved a markedly impressive event in Dublin yesterday… a calm and stillness pervaded the entire city that was manifestation of the feelings of the people in regard to the solemnity of the occasion. Vehicular traffic ceased as if by clock-work on the eleventh hour being tolled; work in all big industrial concerns, commercial establishments, public offices and places of business was suspended; trains ceased running on the various railway systems; pedestrians stood still on the footpaths with hats doffed and heads reverently bowed…' Irish Times 12th November 1919 Even after independence, it would appear that ex-servicemen and the population at large were able to commemorate their war dead largely without interference. The manufacture of remembrance poppies provided employment for a large number of disabled soldiers and sailors, and according to the Irish Times of the 12th of November 1923, 150,000 of these were sold in Ireland. According to the report, the flower was worn by policemen and Free State Army members by placing it in the bands of their caps. A body of ex-soldiers paraded freely through Dublin city to the Pro-Cathedral, along Bachelors Walk, led by a brass band. By 1927 however, the beginnings of a backlash became more and more apparent. The Irish Independent of the 9th of November of that year carried a report of a Fianna Fáil meeting in Foster Place near College Green. The object of the meeting, according to Sean Lemass, was to protest against “displays of British Imperialism, insulting to the Irish people”. The issue was not with the commemoration of the war dead per se, but with the British Legion’s insistence on the display of the Union flag at remembrance ceremonies; a flag, according to the report, emblematic of “tyranny, rapine and ruin in Ireland”. Frank Fahy T.D. had “no quarrel with the men who wished to commemorate the memory of the dead… but such a commemoration should not… make out that the men who left this country to fight in Flanders were pro-Britishers” The conflation of remembrance and the display of the Union flag (and by extension the wearing of the poppy) in the fledgeling Republic would ensure that Irishmen’s service in the First World War would eventually become something to be hidden, and eventually airbrushed from history. An Irish Times report from the 11th of November 1932 described scenes of outright violence against those wearing Remembrance poppies. “Poppy-Snatching” was widespread, accompanied by violent assault on anyone wearing the symbol. Shop windows displaying poppies in Pearse Street were smashed, and there were running battles between the police and “anti-imperialist” rioters. The presence of the British Army in Northern Ireland during the Troubles would ensure that the “national amnesia” in the south of Ireland would be complete. Remembrance was so synonymous with Ulster Unionism it became taboo south of the border. The approach of the centenary of the outbreak of the Great War, along with a much-improved Anglo-Irish relationship that would have been unthinkable even ten years ago, has provided an unprecedented opportunity to honour the Irishmen who took up arms and went to Europe, and further afield, to fight for the freedom of small nations – including Ireland. The pity is that no Irish Great War veteran lived to see this remarkable turnaround. Some more reading here including contributions by the late historian Keith Jeffery: http://www.freewebs.com/ireland1418/aftermath.htm A Jstor article here: http://www.jstor.org/stable/30095658?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents Happy Reading and Happy New Year! Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depaor01 Posted 31 December , 2016 Share Posted 31 December , 2016 On 29/12/2016 at 13:26, museumtom said: For what it is worth. I set myself the task to re-write Ireland's Memorial Records, fourteen years ago. It is now coming to fruition... Cuimhnímis Iad-we will remember them. As this thread has drifted in this direction, I hope Tom won't mind me publicly thanking him here for supplying, out of the blue, a newspaper photo of the Dublin Fusilier in my autosignature, with added info. I had been searching for an image of him in vain since 2001. The invaluable help with a local commemoration project also cannot go unacknowledged. Looking forward to the book. Thanks Tom, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depaor01 Posted 31 December , 2016 Share Posted 31 December , 2016 On 29/12/2016 at 13:26, museumtom said: For what it is worth. I set myself the task to re-write Ireland's Memorial Records, fourteen years ago. It is now coming to fruition... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norrette Posted 31 December , 2016 Share Posted 31 December , 2016 (edited) On 29/12/2016 at 17:28, museumtom said: sadly Tyrone is one of the six counties that is not covered. Not to worry - he was born in Surrey anyway :-) Edited 31 December , 2016 by Norrette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 31 December , 2016 Share Posted 31 December , 2016 (edited) Thank you kindly Dave, always happy to help. Norrette, He was born in Windsor, Berkshire and lived in Dungannon, County Tyrone, according to SDGW. Kind regards. Tom. Edited 31 December , 2016 by museumtom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10Div Posted 6 January , 2017 Share Posted 6 January , 2017 Found this thread very interesting; for the record Bryan Cooper was a Major not a Major General. For those interest those interested in 10th (Irish) Division may I suggest my book Neither Unionist nor Nationalist based on my PhD thesis supervised by the late Keith Jeffery . Steve http://irishacademicpress.ie/product/neither-unionist-nor-nationalist-the-10th-irish-division-in-the-great-war/ Review of Sandford I Times 7 Feb 2015.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 6 January , 2017 Share Posted 6 January , 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, 10Div said: Found this thread very interesting; for the record Bryan Cooper was a Major not a Major General. For those interest those interested in 10th (Irish) Division may I suggest my book Neither Unionist nor Nationalist based on my PhD thesis supervised by the late Keith Jeffery . Steve http://irishacademicpress.ie/product/neither-unionist-nor-nationalist-the-10th-irish-division-in-the-great-war/ Review of Sandford I Times 7 Feb 2015.pdf 10 Div I have read your book and it is in my opinion one of the most interesting written on Irish formations. There are reviews of the book on the GWF somewhere. Would be interested in picking your brains on a couple of key questions. MG Edited 6 January , 2017 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10Div Posted 6 January , 2017 Share Posted 6 January , 2017 Thanks for your comments MG. Always willing to help as you will appreciate that I gathered more information during my research than could ever be included in a book. Still an ongoing passion, so always looking for more titbits. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 6 January , 2017 Share Posted 6 January , 2017 1 hour ago, 10Div said: Thanks for your comments MG. Always willing to help as you will appreciate that I gathered more information during my research than could ever be included in a book. Still an ongoing passion, so always looking for more titbits. Steve Steve - If I set up another thread to discuss Irish Battalions in the Great War, would you be able to answer my questions there? We could go off-line but an open discussion might draw in some additional expertise and material that we all might benefit from. MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10Div Posted 6 January , 2017 Share Posted 6 January , 2017 Happy to answer any questions I can on-line. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 6 January , 2017 Share Posted 6 January , 2017 12 minutes ago, 10Div said: Happy to answer any questions I can on-line. Steve Thanks. I have started a new thread here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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