ANZAC weapon used in Lone Pine area

[Rockturner]

Love your work Mr Creafield. You can state the bleeding obvious anytime you like.

Loneranger VC

[tatmattd]

The only reference i have seen to a dum-dum bullet in any documentation is on the 5th of Aug 1915 reporting a cartridge .303 Mk VI marked D.7/6-12 contained dum-dum bullet. The way I read it is that this was an unusual enough occurance to warrant being reported in Divisional Admin files. I have further info on the use of the Hotchkiss Gun which I will post as soon as i have tidied the story up. I first encountered the 3 pdr Hotchkiss Gun being used for sniping while I was researching the use of telescopic sighted rifles in Gallipoli. Cheers, Matt.

[michaeldr]

On 8/25/2017 at 04:21, Creafield said:

4. Bullet construction for WW1 was a full metal jacket.  Offically I have never heard why .. I think the 'rules of war'

 

Correct; see http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp for the text of 

Laws of War : Declaration on the Use of Bullets Which Expand or Flatten Easily in the Human Body; July 29, 1899

 

and thanks for those professional insights in your above post

 

regards

Michael

[ServiceRumDiluted]

I'm no expert but didn't the .303 VII bullet have an aluminium tip in the core? I remember reading a book by a Pathologist in the 20's and 30's (From memory 'mostly murder' by Prof. Sidney Smith) who found that the MKVII bullets were designed to be imbalanced so that the front slowed more than the rear causing the bullet to 'banana' causing massive injury while complying with the letter if not the spirit of the above law on SAA. Could there be anything in this? 

 

 

Edited 26 August , 2017 by ServiceRumDiluted

[SiegeGunner]

References in enemy sources to 'dum-dum' bullets often turn out to relate to ammunition manufactured at the Dum Dum Arsenal in India.  I recall at least one such reference where the writer said he was sure the enemy was using 'dum-dum' bullets because he had seen the name printed on captured packets of ammunition.

 

It is, sadly, almost three years since TonyE died, and my memory of some of the many things he told me is unfortunately fading a little ... but I think I remember him telling me that the Australians at Gallipoli used Mk VI round-nosed ammunition, much of it supplied from India.

[ServiceRumDiluted]

6 hours ago, SiegeGunner said:

... but I think I remember him telling me that the Australians at Gallipoli used Mk VI round-nosed ammunition, much of it supplied from India.

So, there could be something in my idea that if the usual round was the MKVI and the odd MKVII was used by snipers and the difference in sound and impact was perceptable then this could explain the Turkish belief that 'exploding' bullets were in occasional use?

 

Edit:

TonyE gave, on his website these figures for muzzle velocity, MKVI - 1,970 fps, MKVII 2,440 fps, so a difference in sound could have been distinct. He also mentions the Aluminium tipped core as being intended to give maximum range whilst maintaining weight.

Edited 26 August , 2017 by ServiceRumDiluted

[Creafield]

Greetings All

One of the wonderful things about internet forums is that anyone can learn anything new at anytime with an open mind.  So this interesting topic has prompted me to do some research and go down to the dungeon(OK the basement !!!) to fossick out my old ballistics material.

 

I have learnt:

1. From Michael .. the rule of war to prevent 'flattening bullets' was first enunciated in the St. Petersburg convention of 1868.  This was further expanded in the Hague Convention of 1899.  One interesting point is that if you were in a war with a 'non contracting member' you were permitted to use flattening bullets if the other 'party' did not contract to the same principle.  Which raises the question was the Ottoman empire a contracting member??

 

2. From ServiceRumDilu .. 'The Mark VII was a sectional bullet with the front part in Aluminium'. 

 

The Aluminium front of the Mk VII was used so the spitzer shape could be used to make the bullet longer – hence more ballistically stable.  This makes good bullet design sense.  From my understanding of ballistics I don’t think this would make it inherently more unstable when it hit soft tissue, although this has been stated in some articles.  What made wounds severe were high velocity bullets (Mk VII) hitting bone or abdomen, or at close range.

 

Before books came out with the cross sectional details, I used to saw some bullets in half to see how they were constructed.  I remember the .303 was a terribly ‘hard’ bullet to saw – which made it no good for my purposes..  The Round nose bullet (Mk VI) had a poor ballistic coefficient, hence if loaded for maximum velocity it would cause to great a chamber pressure.  It was loaded to a slower speed .. which also helped barrel longevity, but it’s accuracy and trajectory were woeful

 

Also you claim the ‘Mk VI (round nose) was the standard bullet used at Gallipoli.  I was very surprised at this as they started production of the Mk VII in 1910.  It had a far superior muzzle velocity and accuracy.  However this link to the Australian War Memorial certainly appears to confirm. https://www.awm.gov.au/articles/blog/australian-issued-rifles-and-bayonets-first-world-war

 

This is also an interesting link to .303 bullets  https://sites.google.com/site/britmilammo/-303-inch/-303-inch-cordite-ball-mark-vi-to-viiiz

 

Another link to a book, Anzac Battlefield: A Gallipoli landscape of War & Memory, which confirms Mk VI was a bullet used on Gallipoli: https://books.google.com.au/books?id=uSd0CwAAQBAJ&pg=PA167&lpg=PA167&dq=303+ammunition+used+in+gallipoli&source=bl&ots=E6TairL0gC&sig=tcnBUplVeYFAtglDzc_Z5Cb_iFE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwinn--kkvvVAhUIjpQKHbBDCeo4ChDoAQgtMAE#v=onepage&q=303%20ammunition%20used%20in%20gallipoli&f=false

 

3.  From Siege Gunner .. The manufacturing of bullets in Dum Dum arsenal in India.  I reckon that is the definitive answer to why Mk IV bullets, made prior to 1899, with hollow and lead nosed bullets were called Dum Dum's - however these were Mk IV bullets, and not used in WW1 (AFAIK).  However the wrapper would have stated ‘Dum Dum’.

 

This is a link to an interesting article in the ‘Journal of Military & Veterans Health’ on ‘missile injuries’ http://jmvh.org/article/missile-injuries-over-a-century-of-service-the-303-projectile-and-its-wounding-capabilities-a-historical-profile-1/

 

So I’m guessing that the factory wrapper on the Mk VI made the descriptive term ‘Dum Dum’, not the hollow point??  It WAS a bullet that could be easily altered and the way was to make cross cuts in the head to expose the lead – it was much easier to do this in a round nose bullet without affecting the longitudinal stability compared to a spitzer bullet.

 

So for me the end result of this interesting topic is:

Dum Dum bullets are Round nosed Mk VI, used by Australians at Gallipoli, they were made at the Dum Dum Arsenal, India (near Kolkata).  These could be easily modified to produce ‘flattening’ bullets.  Mk VII Spitzer bullets were exclusively used on the Western front.  I wonder what the British used at the Helles end?? 

 

The Germans and Turks used exclusively Spitzer type bullets, almost impossible to convert to ‘exploding’ bullets.

 

The 3pounder or Nordenfelt gun was 47mm(1.85”) and, in my opinion, would not have been used as an anti-personnel weapon.

 

I see no logical reason why a .303 bullet, that doesn’t hit someone, would make a different noise if it was a ‘flattening’ bullet.  The noise depends on WHAT it hits - ie rock, quartz, wood or loose dirt.

 

Philip C

 

PS:  about 50 years ago, with a friend, and in 1st year University, we were asked to go out to a property in far Western New South Wales to cull Kangaroos that were in plague proportions.  We decided we would sight the rifles in at about 300m.  So set up a target on a tree, and to save time one of us (me!!) stood behind a tree a few yards away.  Three shots were fired, then sighting corrections made.  We used a .243, .270, .303 and a .300 Weatherby Magnum.

 

Waiting for the first shot was quite nerve wracking!!  watching the target there was a terrific ‘wack’ when the bullet hit the tree, and what seemed like seconds later the ‘bang’ of the rifle.  This really brought home to me the destructive power of little bullets.  Obviously I had been in the butts at the rifle range, but it was nothing like being a few yards from where a bullet hits a solid object.  Ever since then I have been somewhat sceptical of WW1 descriptions of people being next to somebody who was shot in the head and just ‘laid his head down’.

 

[michaeldr]

The 1899 Hague conference which outlawed the expanding bullet, did so in opposition to the British position, which was outlined in the WO letter to the FO 4 July 1899, citing experience in the Chiteral Campaign of 1895 where 'the enemy expressed contempt for the weapon' whose 'bullet drilled through a bone and did not fracture it' and 'when soft tissues only were struck, the amount of damage was comparatively trivial'

The British solved this problem by adopting a bullet with 'a small cylindrical cavity in the head, over which the hard metal envelope is turned down' and they further claimed (somewhat cynically to my mind) that this was the less harmful of the alternatives considered.

 

So in view of the widely known previous use by the British, and the known British opposition to the convention, the Turks were probably justified in being worried about the use of such ammunition against them only a few years later in 1915.

 

However, as I outlined in the op, the references made by Lt Fasih are mainly concerned with the sound produced rather than the damage which they inflicted; nine out of thirteen refs

 

Page 50: “Dumdum fire as active as ever” 

Page 52: “... hushed from time to time by exploding dumdum bullets and the echoes they produce.” 

Page 55: “But dumdums continue echoing in the gullies”

Page 57: “Dumdum bullets continue ringing in the valleys”

Page 58: “Occasionally, a dumdum explodes”

Page 59: “The odd dumdum bullet continues to ring out in gullies”

Page 88: “...exploding dumdum bullets produce echoes, which reverberate in the gullies.”
Page 128: “Occasionally, a dumdum explodes in our sector. My soldiers report these come from Gültepe (Rose Hill).”

Page 184: “While a most pleasant period of quiet continues at the front, from time to time it is violated by bitter snap of exploding dumdum bullets.”

 

 

As Matt and Alan have identified the use of 3-pounder Hotchkiss guns in the Australian trenches, and specifically from near Gültepe (Rose Hill), then I am inclined to believe that this is the weapon to which which Lt Fasih is referring, and that his use of the name Dum Dum is mistaken here.

 

 

Note:

The advice given to the British delegation at the conference can be seen here

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=umn.31951d02050029l;view=1up;seq=131

 

On a personal note; G Fleetwood Wilson's use of the wording “when soft tissues only were struck, the amount of damage was comparatively trivial”

reminds me of my late father's comment on his seeing my grandfather's record from Gallipoli, which states Bullet Wound Neck, Slight:

“Only someone who has never been shot could have used the word slight”

 

 

My thanks to all who have lent their expertise here

Michael

Edited 3 September , 2017 by michaeldr

[michaeldr]

On 8/18/2017 at 21:10, tatmattd said:

The Australians installed a QF 3 pounder Hotchkiss gun next to Rose Hill in Hotchkiss gully, later mounting it on Rose Hill.

 

On 3/3/2017 at 14:37, michaeldr said:

Page 128: “Occasionally, a dumdum explodes in our sector. My soldiers report these come from Gültepe (Rose Hill).”

 

Can someone oblige and point out for me where Gültepe (Rose Hill) was situated?

[I understand that originally the book came with a map, however mine was inherited and arrived without]

 

Thanks in advance

Michael

[Guest]

4 hours ago, michaeldr said:

 

 

Can someone oblige and point out for me where Gültepe (Rose Hill) was situated?

[I understand that originally the book came with a map, however mine was inherited and arrived without]

 

Thanks in advance

Michael

 

 

I cant say exactly where it is but there are photos showing the 4th Australian Field Ambulance in Hotchkiss Gully immediatley adjacent to Rose Hill in Nov 1915 after the blizzard. Hotchkiss Gully overlooked Chailak Dere towards the northern end of ANZAC. Is suspect it was not far from Little Table Top.

 

None of the 110,000 or 1:20,00 scale maps of Anzac I have show it marked. 

 

OH Med Services have  crude map of the dispositions of the Fd Ambulances without any annotation. As you know the Fd Ambulance moved occasionally. I would hazard a guess that the it was was on the spur that included the features table top and Little Table Top which forms the southern side of Chailak Dere. The OH Med Services shows a CCS at the mouth of the dere and a Fd Amb furthur into the Dere. Hotchkiss Gully led into Chailak Dere if one of the photos (taken from Hotchkiss Gully looking into Chailak Dere is any indication. Click

 

Very close to Table Top or Little Table Top.

Edited 5 September , 2017 by Guest

[tatmattd]

Hi Michael, According to "New Zealanders at Gallipoli" by Major Fred Waite DSO. "Rose Hill was a northern underfeature of Bauchop Hill below Little Table Top and above Hotchkiss Gully." "Major Rose was a New Zealand machine Gunner in charge of the 4th Australian Infantry Brigade machine guns. I think it was first occupied in early August 1915. In the first picture I drew a line from Rose Hill to The Nek, it measures about 3300 yards. If they had a clear line of sight between the two it was only just visible, probably requiring a observation post. The photo is my best educated guess as to a photo of the first location of the Hotchkiss Gun. Rose Hill should be visible in the Aerial photo and the illustration.  The 12 pounder insitu should give an idea what the 3 pounder position would have looked like. Matt

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[michaeldr]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....

Now that's on the other (left) flank, while Pine Ridge is on the Anzac right flank

 

I think what we have here is a Turkish place - Gültepe

which by coincidence translates into English as Rose Hill (a name which is already in use by the Anzacs, but for a place on the other flank)

 

So what we are looking for is Gültepe

 

Sincere apologies for my part in this confusion

 

Michael

 

[michaeldr]

And the further thought arises....

Did the Anzacs use one of these 3-pounder Hotchkiss guns on the right flank in the area of Pine Ridge?

[gilly100]

Michael

I cannot add much, but Pine Ridge which runs off the SE corner of Lone Pine could not have had an Allied 3pdr Hotchkiss on it as it was lost on the evening of 25 April from all I have read. Ironically, I believe the Turks had some 10pdr Hotchkiss guns there as testified by a few men, mainly 5bn, 6bn and 9bn. The gun must have been further back to the seaward side of the lines. A good thread and thanks to Matt for putting up some great images up the other end of Anzac.

Cheers

Ian

[tatmattd]

Michael, here is a tad more info on the Hotchkiss Gun. This from the 28th Battalion history, "Captain Menz was also supplied with a Hotchkiss quick-firing gun which discharged a 3 lb. solid shot. This was placed in a carefully chosen nook in one of the hollows and camouflaged with green bushes. In the charge of Corporal C. T. Ballingall, an ex-citizen force gunner, this weapon was a powerful and effective means of knocking out sniper posts whenever they were located."

 

NZ & A Div 1st Nov 1915

Hotchkiss demolished a snipers position reported occupied at the time.

 

7th Bde 3rd Nov 1915

Our shellfire: at 0700 8 shells on trenches and saps in 80 .F5/6. good effect. 6 shells on 80 K3 not discernable.

 

Message dated 5th Nov 1915

To 7th Bde, from 28th Batt.

Hotchkiss Gun being hauled into position on Rose Hill in broad daylight. Working party visible on crest from enemy side. Work evidently observed as several shells now falling near.

 

NZ&A Div 11th Nov 1915

 Machine gun located in vicinity of  The Farm 20x East of 80 F8, was firing down AGHYL Dere  - it became less active when Hotchkiss was turned on it. 

 

13th Battalion 10th Dec 1915

Hotchkiss blew in loophole near 80 F8.

 

13th Battalion 12th Dec 1915

Hotchkiss fired 80 rounds at MG tunnel, 80 yards East of 80F8. One shot landed in left opening slightly collapsing position and another entered right opening causing an explosion.

 

Night of 18th/19th Dec 1915 

Hotchkiss blown up by engineers at 0200.

 

NZ&A Div Admin

on evacuation only 7 guns remained including a 3 pounder Hotchkiss Gun and a 12 pounder improvised anti-aircraft gun.

 

There is a couple of references to Rose Hill being Gültepe but I dont have them to hand at the moment.

 

Cheers, Matt.

 

 

 

[michaeldr]

There a this sketch on page 164 which may help to identify Gültepe

[sorry about the size]

 

 

 

[michaeldr]

I'm having difficulty in pinning down Lt Fasih (or his translator) on the subject of Gültepe

Here are a few examples (but there must be others)

Note how in the earlier entries Gültepe is ours ie Turkish

then later the refs are to 'enemy' ie Anzac gunners & howitzers, but also on Gültepe

 

page 87 - 14^th November

“Our batteries at Gültepe (Rose Hill) and Kavakdere (Poplar Stream) are in action.....................

….........one of our men was wounded by a stray bullet from our machine gun on Gültepe (Rose Hill)”

 

page 89 - 15^th November

“Our field gun on Gültepe fires a round. It hits our own trench.”

 

page 103 - 19^th November

“I point out another place. Situated behind a mound of earth, it offers good views of Gültepe (Rose Hill), Kabatepe (Gaba Tepe), Süngü Bayiri (Bayonet Slope) etc”

 

page 109 - 21^st November

“Our batteries on Gültepe (Rose Hill) are fairly active”

 

page 148 - 28^th November

“Enemy's howitzers on Gültepe (Rose Hill) in action”

 

page 153 - 30^th November

“Enemy gunners on Gültepe (Rose Hill) have started firing at area behind our 19^th Division...........

…............On other hand, none of our gunners are shelling Gültepe (Rose Hill). Perhaps because enemy guns on Gültepe have not been able to find range of Kanlisirt (Lone Pine).”

[Jeff Pickerd]

Michael,

The only reference I have found so far is from Harvey Broadbent's 'Gallipoli The Turkish Defence', Glossary of Turkish Gallipoli Place Names, page xvi -

"Gultepe (or Keltepe) A ridge protruding south from 400 Plateau."

The only problem is, exactly where south of 400 Plateau?

 

With previous references to a Hotchkiss gun placed on Russell's Top, to fire onto Turkish Lone Pine would have been achievable, there a number of references of the Brigaded machine guns lining Russell's Top, and also one sketch map giving ranges, being fired at targets on Lone Pine. The two Japanese bomb guns positioned on Russell's Top also fired across onto the Pine, but that was prior to the August offensive, amunnition having run out before that time.

 

Jeff

[trajan]

I learnt today that H.Danisman died last year so no chance to check with him on the 'dum-dum' translation' as published, but was also able to establish that the diary was indeed published originally in Turkish, and so will try to get hold of a copy to see what the Turkish version says for 'dum-dum'. I should have done this a while ago but far too many others things on my plate, I'm afraid... For those interested the Turkish (original) version is: 

 

Title: Çanakkale 1915 (Kanlısırt Günlüğü) Mehmet Fasih Bey

Author: Mehmet Fasih Bey/Murat Çulcu [I assume this second name is that of the transcriber]

Publisher: Denizler Kitabevi

Publication Date: 2005

ISBN/ISSN: 9799750005137

 

Julian

[Rockturner]

According to info I copied a few years ago at Leeds, Rose Hill was [as mentioned] was a northern underfeature of Bauchop Hill below Little Table Top and above Hotchkiss Gully. Guns placed here defended the ground between The Blockhouse and our position at the Apex. Leeds ref; Gallipoli 133/316. PRO WO95 - 4284

LonerangerVC

[Jeff Pickerd]

Michael,

 

I've have found the location of Rose Hill (Gultepe). Your copy of the sketch map at post 41 did give the clue.

"Bayonet Slope" (Sungubayar) is 'Harris Ridge'.

The Turkish General Staff Ankara - A Brief History of The Canakkale Campaign in The First World War (June 1914 - January, 1916)

Plate 50, Kel T (Keltepe), plate 51, Kel T, plate 52, Gul T (Gultepe), all just to the north of Sungubayar on each map. Plate 51 also shows the position of Karadere.

This does not explain why Lt  Fasih has guns placed at Gultepe when the hill was clearly within the Australian lines, very strange, maybe it is something to do with the translation of his diary from the Ottoman script to Latin Turkish, to English.

 

jeff

[michaeldr]

Many thanks Jeff: what a brilliant idea to check there

 

 

The impression from the TGS Brief Hist's plate 52, is that Gul Tepe (Rose Hill) was the name for the whole of that multi-spurred block which I've circled green here

 

 

Their plate 51 (below) is also useful as it gives the position of the Turkish '79' trenches

and the Yesil (Green) Dere which are both seen on the Lt Fasih/H B Danişman diagram in post No. 41 above

 

 

 

The next map crops provide the allied perspective on this area

 

 

 

 

 

 

Alan very kindly sent me some notes last evening which show that an Anzac 3-pounder Hotchkiss was active on Russel's Top at about this time but as far as I can tell there is no evidence that it engaged the Turkish trenches at the southern half of Pine Ridge (though Lone Pine itself is mentioned)

 

This search has been great fun and I am really so grateful for all the efforts which Pals have put into it

But at this stage, although 3-pounder Hotchkiss fire seems a very plausible explanation for Lt Fasih's/Danişman's unfortunate use of the wording 'Dum-Dum', I am unable to be definite on that point

 

All ideas or comments are welcome

 

Michael

[trajan]

On 3/3/2017 at 15:37, michaeldr said:

On a thread in the Book Review section, Trajan has asked about a Turkish officer's use of the word which has been translated into English as 'dumdum'

 

Praise the gods! Over the weekend or on Monday I will have my hands on a copy of: Kanlısırt günlüğü : Mehmed Fasih Bey'in Çanakkale anıları (1997 edition, and so the first?), ISBN: 9789753910347, editor/translator, M.Çulcu.

 

So, I'll do a search of this to see what term is actually used... My Turkish is, well, limited - it saves me having to converse at length with my mother-in-law (here yet again!) who has no English at all and so keeps our relationship fine!; but I'll call on the services of SWMBO where necessary...

[SiegeGunner]

Julian's research will hopefully resolve the issue, but I wonder, thinking laterally, whether 'dum dum' is actually onomatopoeic like 'pom pom'.

[michaeldr]

1 hour ago, trajan said:

Praise the gods! Over the weekend or on Monday I will have my hands on a copy of: Kanlısırt günlüğü : Mehmed Fasih Bey'in Çanakkale anıları (1997 edition, and so the first?), ISBN: 9789753910347, editor/translator, M.Çulcu.

 

Julian,

 

That's great

The English edition which I have makes the point that Hasan Fasri Danişman used Murat Çulcu's translation from the original Ottoman manuscript,

so it will be most useful to go back to basics and hear what your interpretation is of M Çulcu's words here.

 

regards

Michael