ANZAC weapon used in Lone Pine area

[trajan]

On 3/3/2017 at 15:37, michaeldr said:

On a thread in the Book Review section, Trajan has asked about a Turkish officer's use of the word which has been translated into English as 'dumdum' ...  The Turkish soldiers in his company seem to think that this particular form of fire came from Gültepe/Rose Hill (though on other occasions it may have been from elsewhere.) ...  These are some of the quotes from Lt Fasih's diary ... Page 50: “Dumdum fire as active as ever”

 

On 9/8/2017 at 16:37, trajan said:

 

Praise the gods! Over the weekend or on Monday I will have my hands on a copy of: Kanlısırt günlüğü : Mehmed Fasih Bey'in Çanakkale anıları (1997 edition, and so the first?), ISBN: 9789753910347, editor/translator, M.Çulcu.

 

OK, got it, and knowing that some will be anxious to see what we have, I'll do a quick one now - have to go home to do dinner and be nice to ma-in-law soon but will add more anon as we go.

 

A first off. I have the 1997 Turkish text and the Danisman 2003 translation side by side (to my laptop and an Efes also!). And immediate problems...

 

English version p.50: the relevant dumdum entry is timed/dated (p.49-50), 12:00 hrs 02 November 1915 Tuesday.

 

Turkish version p.92: that time and day is registered (p.91-92) as "20/8/1331 (2/9/1915) - Sali [= Tuesday]". I need to look into this a bit further but 20/8/15 is the date according to the diary (in the Turkish version) and so (I think) that is using the regular Islamic calendar, and in brackets we have the date (I think) converted to the Rumi calendar.  Whatever, Turkish version indicates the entry is for August/September, NOT November - the day is the same (Tuesday) but the month dates don't agree...

 

I checked further on this discrepancy (needed another Efes!).

 

English version, p.16: second diary entry is dated "16 October 1915 - Saturday";

Turkish version p. 56: second diary entry is dated "3/8/331 (16/8/1915) - Cumartesi [= Saturday]', so 03 August 1331 Islamic year, and in brackets 16 August 1915 Rumi(?).

 

Well the long and the short of that is that there is a major discrepancy between the dates in the Turkish version and those in the English version which needs a tad more thought than an fourth Efes will allow, so I'll come back to it later...

 

BUT, you all want to know about the dumdum entry itself don't you? . 

 

"Adana bayırı... Bomba yok [= no grenades]. Dumdular çatlıyor ve faal vaziyet eskisi gibi. ...", so "... Adana slope ... The 'dumdum' is as active as it was before".

 

I'll try to get the other dumdum entries done during the week. But evidently (to my mind) he is referring to some kind of repeating gun. Oh, and I'll check on Gull teppe when I can..

 

 

[michaeldr]

Julian

 

The mix-up in the dates is a real problem

 

As you will see from the English version after the 'Tributes' pages v -xii

the book begins with a chapter on 'Background' pages 1 -11

Here there are details of Fasih's service before the period of the current diary,

concluding with his wounding “Before the end of May”,

his evacuation to Istanbul and later convalescence at Hadimköy

and his return to his regiment on Gallipoli “In October 1915”

 

Does the Turkish version cover this same pre-diary period and does it help to clear up the dates issue?

 

Good Luck

Michael

[trajan]

5 hours ago, michaeldr said:

... The mix-up in the dates is a real problem ... 

Yes, this mix up on dates has me cautious... And as Wikki is not available here I cannot use my regular conversion aid to see what "20/08/1331" converts to on the Rumi system... But it also makes me wonder just how accurate and true to the original diary the Turkish version is, never mind the Danisman one. Danishman does talk of how Chulcu had problems with the text when it it used non Turkish/Persian terms... And I do wonder where it is now? Which means a few emails from this end to various people!

 

As for the other 'dumdum' entries, I'll try and work on those tomorrow - today not possible for family reasons... 

 

Julian

[Jeff Pickerd]

Julian and Michael,

 

I can confirm that the dates recorded by Hasan Basri Danisman in his English diary translations are the correct dates. The Tuesday 2nd November, 1915 from pages 49-50 does conform to the Turkish translation date of Tuesday, 20/8/1331 (page 92).

The evidence to support this is two fold.

1. Gallipoli, The Turkish Defence, by Harvey Broadbent has a number entries that give the Ottoman 'Maliyya' Calendar dates, along with the Gregorian Calendar equivalents, i.e, 

12/2/1331 - 25/4/1915

8/4/1331 - 21/6/1915

19/4/1331 - 2/7/1915

21/5/1331 - 3/8/1915

27/5/1331 - 9/8/1915

26/7/1331 - 9/10/1915

14/9/1331 - 25/11/1915

20/9/1331 - 2/12/1915

6/10/1331 - 19/12/1915

 

2. The conversion of the Maliyya date 3/8/1331 to the Gregorian date gives 16/10/1915, as does 20/8/1331 to 2/11/1915.

 

So the Rumi system relates to the Gregorian dates with both the Turkish and English translations of Lt Mehmet Fasih's dairies.

 

Jeff

[michaeldr]

Many thanks for pointing that out Jeff

The University of Zurich's Asian & Oriental Institute has a handy conversion tool seen here
http://www.oriold.uzh.ch/maliyya.html

This allows you to enter any one date and it is then converted for you into the other three

 

I put in the Gregorian date 2/11/1915 
and this was converted for me into the Maliyya date 20/8/1331 and further confirmed as being a Tuesday

 

regards

Michael

[Jeff Pickerd]

Thanks Michael,

 

That was was the conversion program that I used to check all of Broadbent's date entries as well as converting the dates from Lt Fasih's diary. Broadbent had a number of errors with some of the date conversions, but there were more than enough correct date entries to highlight those errors, along with the University of Zurich's conversion tool to check and correct those errors.

There still remains the problem to the translation of the original Ottoman script to modern Turkish, to my mind, the only way that can be rectified is by having the original diary re-translated, that is if such can be achieved.

 

Jeff

[alantwo]

Just come across the following within a New Zealand and Australian Division Artillery Report for 21st September 1915.

'It has been arranged to borrow from the Australian Artillery a 3pr gun at present on WALKER'S RIDGE. It will be taken to RHODODENDRON SPUR and will be manned by the Infantry.'

The report is signed by Brigadier General JJ Johnston, CRA, NZ & A Division.

This might be the second 3 pounder that was being used for anti-aircraft purposes but I haven't found anything to substantiate this. Perhaps if someone has access to New Zealand Infantry War Diaries they could check whether the gun was actually used. The siting of a gun in Rhododendron Spur presumably moves it to the north and further away from Pine Ridge, but with a maximum range of about 4,000 yards, Pine Ridge would still be within range.

 

Regards

Alan

[Robert Dunlop]

Just a further quick note on the use of reversed bullets. The Germans introduced the practice of reversing bullets prior to the introduction of tanks. The purpose was to increase the ability to penetrate steel shields or equivalent hardened protection used by enemy snipers and observers. Ottoman infantry may have come to the same conclusion independently or through the close cooperation between German military advisors and the Ottoman army. It is not surprising, therefore, to read of the significant destructive effects to the skull if these bullets had been fired at someone using an observation slit or similar.

 

Robert

[Robert Dunlop]

On 9/9/2017 at 16:03, trajan said:

"Adana bayırı... Bomba yok [= no grenades]. Dumdular çatlıyor ve faal vaziyet eskisi gibi. ...", so "... Adana slope ... The 'dumdum' is as active as it was before".

 

Thank you very much, trajan. So to be clear, Dumdular is the original word that is being translated as 'dumdum' in English?

 

Robert

[trajan]

On 13/09/2017 at 00:16, Jeff Pickerd said:

... I can confirm that the dates recorded by Hasan Basri Danisman in his English diary translations are the correct dates. The Tuesday 2nd November, 1915 from pages 49-50 does conform to the Turkish translation date of Tuesday, 20/8/1331 (page 92).

The evidence to support this is two fold. ... 

 

On 13/09/2017 at 22:56, michaeldr said:

... The University of Zurich's Asian & Oriental Institute has a handy conversion tool seen here
http://www.oriold.uzh.ch/maliyya.html ... 

 

On 16/09/2017 at 13:36, Robert Dunlop said:

... So to be clear, Dumdular is the original word that is being translated as 'dumdum' in English? ...

 

I have been absent from GWF for a week - something called work?! - and so catch-up time. 

 

Jeff, thanks for clarifying those dates... Within Ottoman Turkey there were - as you clearly know - such a bewildering (to us, without further study) variety of dating systems... If Fasih was a Syriac and had used the Seleucid dating system I would have been more on the ball there!

 

Michael - thanks for that link for converting dates, I can see that it will be useful in the future!

 

Jeff - I am skiving-off for a Saturday afternoon 'pint' (ma-in-law is in residence!) and so have neither the original Turkish or the Danisman translation of the text with me. I think - and will check when home - that the word used in the Turkish edition was 'dumdumlar', plural, so my spelling mistake above (too many Efes last week???!!!) But, I will - repeat - check again when I get home. I did look at the other entries in the Turkish version and they were - the ones I read - all about 'dum-dums'.

 

Both - yes, the original diary needs to be consulted. The original translator (M.Çulcu) does not say where it is, and although I have written to the original publishers about this (asking also if he is alive) I have not received  a reply yet. My overall impression from reading the English version and bits of the Turkish version is that Fasih is describing some kind of repetitive firing and impact noise, as in 'Bam-bam-bam' so becoming 'Dum-dum-dum'

 

Michael - here is the map from the Danisman version, reproduced here (naturally!) for reference purposes. I know nothing about the two who contributed to this so cannot vouch for its accuracy. But it does show 'Rose Hill' more or less where some posts above have located it - I know not the terrain so leave it to you and others to digress on that. But, to my armchair reading it seems to be one of those toponyms with a wider (extent wise) meaning and so the Turks could have occupied one part of 'Rose Hill' even as the enemy occupied another.

 

Oh, and yes, the Turkish 1997 original does have a couple of sketch plans and diagrams that are not on the Danisman English version - nothing relevant to the discussion here but I will try to scan them later.

 

[michaeldr]

Many thanks for the map Julian

The various Turkish names are very useful indeed

Though, as far as "79 Siperler/Trench No.79" is concerned

that shown in the TGS's Brief History makes much more sense in the context of Lt Fasih's diary  [see post 47 above]

 

[michaeldr]

On 17/09/2017 at 00:39, michaeldr said:

Though, as far as "79 Siperler/Trench No.79" is concerned

that shown in the TGS's Brief History makes much more sense in the context of Lt Fasih's diary  [see post 47 above]

 

Though this is a diversion, I would say that what is shown as Turkish Trench No.79 in the Thurgar/Hooft map

was in fact some where round about Turkish Trench No.s 15-21 

see the crop below from the TGS's Brief History

 

 

[trajan]

Yes, dumdumlar (plural) is correct...

 

And second, here are the two diagrams and one plan in the Turkish version that are not in the English one. Note that these are scanned from the 1997 edition, which uses (as some Turkish books still do!) cheap yellowish paper, hence the poor quality here.

 

The first two are from the Turkish version p. 136, the entry for 5:00 p.m., 04/09/1331 = 17/09/1915 = 17:00 hrs, 17/11/1915 (English edition, p. 95). I have no idea what it is meant to show! Note, incidentally, on the first one the reference to 'Dumdumlar fazlalas(h)ti'.

 

Second two from the un-numbered p. 146 (i.e., facing p. 147), so relates to 07/09/1331 = 20/09/1915 = 20/11/1915 (English edition, p. 104-106).

 

Last two are from p. 236, the entry for 6.00 p.m., 01-02/10/1331 = 02-03/10/1331 = 18:00, 14-15/12/1915 (English edition, p. 195-197)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[michaeldr]

Many thanks for those Julian

First reactions as follows

 

Fasih's diary for 20 NOV 1915 has at the close of the 14:30 entry -”I work on sketch of 82 Trenches”

'81' is shown on this map [from the TGS's Brief History], so I presume that '82' is likewise forward of '79' and slightly to its south-west

 

The last sketch is of the 'grenade' which he opened - too amusing not to reproduce

 

regards

Michael

 

[michaeldr]

Julian,

 

I wonder if you could help us with the Turkish notes on the '82 Trench' diagram: using an automatic translation service on the web only gets one so far (and perhaps not even in the right direction )

 

 

I think that the Turkish rear area is on the right hand margin behind Hulusi deresi, where I understand their latrines were placed

and no-man's-land & then the ANZACs were to the left, with the exits from 82 Trench in that direction being via covered saps

The way off to the '83 Trench' is marked at the bottom

 

The Telefon is clearly marked and just beneath that is the '82 Trench HQ'

 

There are two other 'headquarters' marked but I haven't been able to work out what they are:

Bölük karagâhi and istinad bölüğü karagâhi

Just to confuse matters the second is also given as Isnad Bölüğü

 

Anything else which you can help with will be most welcome

 

regards

Michael

Edited 18 September , 2017 by michaeldr

[Jeff Pickerd]

Julian,

 

I would join Michael with extending my thanks for the latest information from Lt Fasih's diary, but in saying that, you have also taken me into Gallipoli territory that is far to the south of what I would consider my normal field of study.

Michael, I too have endeavoured to try and make some sense of Lt Fasih's sketch map. The Google translation tool has helped with some of the Turkish words, but not all, some of the translations make no sense at all to the map detail, but I do concur with your thoughts as to some of the detail on the Thurgar/Hooft map being wrong, particularly the positioning of Trench No's.82 & 83.

I would hazard a guess that they took the 'Headquarters Trenches No. 82' to being the 57th Regimental Headquarters (Mustafa Kemal) back up on Battle Ship Hill.

The "Kuznetsk Grubunun Genel Savunma Duzeni (6Agustos 1915) map, from the TGS,s Brief History" clearly puts trenches 82 & 83 at south of 'Owen's Gully on Lone Pine, (Cemal deresi), as outlined in the sketch map from the Turkish version of the book.

Julian will be able to correct me if the following are wrong, but I have made out 'Boluk karargahi' to be Company headquarters.

Mudafa ? - Defence ?.

Dusmana - enemy.

deresi - creek.

giden - outgoing.

Karagahi -Headquarters.

Tel Orguleri - wire netting/entanglements/ barbed wire?

Telefon - Telephone.

mesturlar - officials.

 

Still working on finding more map references to help further.

 

Jeff

[trajan]

On 9/18/2017 at 14:30, michaeldr said:

I wonder if you could help us with the Turkish notes on the '82 Trench' diagram: using an automatic translation service on the web only gets one so far (and perhaps not even in the right direction ... )

 

On 9/18/2017 at 17:06, Jeff Pickerd said:

Julian will be able to correct me if the following are wrong, but I have made out 'Boluk karargahi' to be Company headquarters.

Mudafa ? - Defence ?.

Dusmana - enemy.

deresi - creek.

giden - outgoing.

Karagahi -Headquarters.

Tel Orguleri - wire netting/entanglements/ barbed wire?

Telefon - Telephone.

mesturlar - officials. 

 

Hello both,

 

As you two have probably guessed the beginning of the new term has not allowed me much free time, but I will get back on this case quickly now (before the boys come back from school) and cross-check with my wife and others when I can. So, take these as provisional to be going on with...

 

Mudafa ? - Defence ?. - Cognate with mudil, so ?obstacle? - 'Lagimi' = trench

Dusmana - enemy. - Dush is a shower, mana has a sense somewhat like 'suggestive', or 'possible', so with giden perhaps something to do with an incipient seasonal water course? - or a drainage trench?

deresi - creek. - Almost spot on there - a valley!

giden - outgoing. - Yes

Karagahi -Headquarters. - A karagumrugu (with umlauted 'u's) is an old word for a customs post, and so yes, sounds right

Tel Orguleri - wire netting/entanglements/ barbed wire? - Tel is wire and Orgu - orguleri is plait/ed, so yes, barbed wire.

Telefon - Telephone. - right on!

mesturlar - officials. - New to me, but mestur means concealed or secret or obscured or covered, and lar is plural... But rahi??? Another new one on me...

 

As I said above, I need to double-check most of these but some are certainly ok.

 

Julian