Uniform Identification Help

[rhonalyall]

I have inherited a few old photos and was wondering if anyone can help identify the uniforms?

The lone man is my great grandfather who served in WW1 in the Cameron Highlanders; please can you tell me if these photos are all the same battalion - the trimmed cap seems to be a constant but the jackets and trousers vary. 

Many thanks 

Edited 12 April , 2017 by rhonalyall
Added photo

[FROGSMILE]

Picture 1 shows a Kings Own Scottish Borderers (KOSB) Territorial Force summer training camp pre-war with most of the men wearing Leslie sett trews but one or two in the breeches and puttees of the battalion's mounted infantry section.

 

Picture 2 seems to show the staff of a Scottish Divisional training school, with men from infantry and artillery units and an instructor of the Gymnastic staff sat centrally.

 

Picture 3 also shows a group of KOSB Territorials at training camp.  The bucket is still marked for the pre-1908 Berwickshire Rifle Volunteers.

 

Picture 4 seems to show a Territorial battalion associated with the Seaforth Highlanders.  Perhaps, the 5th Caithness and Sutherland Battalion, who wore a unique, circular bonnet badge.

 

Picture 5 is I think a Territorial soldier of a Cameron Highlanders TF Battalion.  He seems to be wearing the sporran and perhaps collar badge of a forebear rifle volunteer unit from pre-1908, the Inverness Highland RVC.

 

Picture 6 seems to be a wartime group of Cameron Highlanders, probably of a TF Battalion.

Edited 12 April , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[max7474]

A variety of Scottish regts there.

 

Some pre war Territorials as well.

[gordon92]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Picture 1 shows a Kings Own Scottish Borderers (KOSB) Territorial Force summer training camp pre-war with most of the men wearing Leslie sett trews but one or two in the breeches and puttees of the battalion's mounted infantry section.

 

Picture 2 seems to show the staff of a Scottish Divisional training school, with men from infantry and artillery units and an instructor of the Gymnastic staff sat centrally.

 

Picture 3 also shows a group of KOSB Territorials at training camp.  The bucket is still marked for the pre-1908 Berwickshire Rifle Volunteers.

 

Picture 4 seems to show a Territorial battalion associated with the Seaforth Highlanders.  Perhaps, the 5th Caithness and Sutherland Battalion, who wore a unique, circular bonnet badge.

 

Picture 5 is I think a Territorial soldier of a Cameron Highlanders TF Battalion.  He seems to be wearing the sporran and perhaps collar badge of a forebear rifle volunteer unit from pre-1908, the Inverness Highland RVC.

 

Picture 6 seems to be a wartime group of Cameron Highlanders, probably of a TF Battalion.

To supplement these comments I would add that the two kilted soldiers in Picture 2 are 6th Battalion HLI on left and 9th (Highland) Battalion Royal Scots on the right.

 

Picture 4 shows, in my opinion, soldiers from the 9th Royal Scots (see 1st photo below) with their distinctive sporran.  5th Seaforth had a dark grey sporran with white tassels. I think the angle of the photo distorts the Royal Scots badge into appearing somewhat circular.

 

Picture 5 is indeed a pre-1908 Cameron Highlander but of the 3rd Militia Battalion (see 2nd photo below).  Here again the sporran is the main clue.

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, max7474 said:

A variety of Scottish regts there.

 

Some pre war Territorials as well.

 

Yes, I think that the great grandfather must have served extensively with the Territorials and retained an album reflecting his service with them in association with several units.

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

To supplement these comments I would add that the two kilted soldiers in Picture 2 are 6th Battalion HLI on left and 9th (Highland) Battalion Royal Scots on the right.

 

Picture 4 shows, in my opinion, soldiers from the 9th Royal Scots (see 1st photo below) with their distinctive sporran.  5th Seaforth had a dark grey sporran with white tassels. I think the angle of the photo distorts the Royal Scots badge into appearing somewhat circular.

 

Picture 5 is indeed a pre-1908 Cameron Highlander but of the 3rd Militia Battalion (see 2nd photo below).  Here again the sporran is the main clue.

 

 

Good stuff gordon92, I concur with your comments and I think that between us we have deciphered the units concerned.

[rhonalyall]

Wow, that's absolutely fantastic. I wasn't expecting anything near that kind of response.

I know he was wounded with shrapnel twice and went back. The documents show him as a Private, but I think this later picture is a Corporal? I think that's what the 1919 ID papers say too.

[Grovetown]

2 hours ago, rhonalyall said:

Wow, that's absolutely fantastic. I wasn't expecting anything near that kind of response.

I know he was wounded with shrapnel twice and went back. The documents show him as a Private, but I think this later picture is a Corporal? I think that's what the 1919 ID papers say too.

 

 

 

While this man is a corporal, he is neither in the Labour Corps nor the Cameron Highlanders like Donald M(a)cVicar (they spell it both ways).

 

He is a corporal in the mounted section of, I believe, the Duke of Wellington's (West Riding) Regiment. He is wearing the Coat, Warm, Mounted Services and carries his 'PH Bag', in which he carried an early gas mask.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

[rhonalyall]

21 minutes ago, Grovetown said:

 

While this man is a corporal, he is neither in the Labour Corps nor the Cameron Highlanders like Donald M(a)cVicar (they spell it both ways).

 

He is a corporal in the mounted section of, I believe, the Duke of Wellington's (West Riding) Regiment. He is wearing the Coat, Warm, Mounted Services and carries his 'PH Bag', in which he carried an early gas mask.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

Hi GT,

 

Thanks so much for your reply. 

 

Knowing absolutely nothing about the military I'm at a bit of a loss and struggling to understand the structure/battalions etc.

 

My mum told me he was in the Cameron Highlanders (joined at Inverness when he was 16) and part of the Expeditionary Force.

He was injured right at the start of the war (hospitalised at Glamis).

He's got the Mons Star.

This photo is the same man as the very young man in the kilt but this time in 1918.

 

Do you know...

- was the Expeditionary Force a single group made up of soldiers from different units? Or was it a mission that the CH would have been part of, along side other battalions?

- He has two different service numbers; would you be reissued with one for the Labour Crops being moved out of the CH after injury?

- would you ever move regiments? CH - DoW - LC

- would you ever be photographed in a coat that wasn't yours? e.g lack of resources, postcards home etc.

- the ID papers after discharge read Labour Corps but I can't make out the Unit, any idea?

 

I apologise for using the wrong terminology and naivety! Really appreciate any further insight you may have. 

 

Thanks,

Rhona 

 

[ss002d6252]

Quote

was the Expeditionary Force a single group made up of soldiers from different units? Or was it a mission that the CH would have been part of, along side other battalions

 There around 165,000 men in France by mid-Sep 1914 and half a dozen or so different divisions - an infantry division would have around a dozen battalions each at full strength.

 

Quote

- He has two different service numbers; would you be reissued with one for the Labour Crops being moved out of the CH after injury?

Yes
 

Quote

would you ever move regiments? CH - DoW - LC

Men would be placed wherever the army needed them to be.

Craig

[rhonalyall]

Thank you Craig! 

 

[Grovetown]

2 hours ago, rhonalyall said:

 

My mum told me he was in the Cameron Highlanders (joined at Inverness when he was 16) and part of the Expeditionary Force.

He was injured right at the start of the war (hospitalised at Glamis).

He's got the Mons Star.

This photo is the same man as the very young man in the kilt but this time in 1918.

 

 

I've checked both the medal index card and the medal rolls for Donald MacVicar 14425 Labour Corps/ 5485 Camerons; and there is no reference to him having being in the DoW (WR).

 

I can't find a reference to a Star for him either, which is curious as he was plainly wounded; and known to the Deputy Adjutant General, 3rd Echelon in Rouen in the November 1914 document.

 

I'm also afraid families have a terrible habit of mangling stories about individuals etc, and it is quite possible that it is not the same person in both photographs - but a brother, uncle, nephew etc etc etc.

 

My mum told us all about her father's war service, and it turned out she was talking total, complete rubbish. She quite angrily stuck by her version for ages, until presented with original documents which were impossible for her to deny.

 

2 hours ago, rhonalyall said:

- would you ever be photographed in a coat that wasn't yours? e.g lack of resources, postcards home etc.

 

Occasionally you see pictures of men in 'fancy dress' - yet these are always (never say always) full ceremonial dress; and never (never say never) in full service dress like this.

 

The picture looks entirely right, and I would be 99.99% sure this is an actual DoW man.

 

2 hours ago, rhonalyall said:

- the ID papers after discharge read Labour Corps but I can't make out the Unit, any idea?

 

760 Area Employment Company.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

Edited 13 April , 2017 by Grovetown

[ss002d6252]

It's possible that service with the DoW was at home (which shouldn't usually therefore appear on the medal index card and so can be very difficult to prove) but as GT points there's certainly the option that it could be a mistaken identity

 

Craig

[rhonalyall]

I really appreciate your advice, it's great to get this type of information. 

 

1 hour ago, Grovetown said:

 

I can't find a reference to a Star for him either, which is curious as he was plainly wounded; and known to the Deputy Adjutant General, 3rd Echelon in Rouen in the November 1914 document.

Thank you for deciphering the 'DAG' bit. That was quite interesting to find out; it starts bringing these documents to life. 

I read that nearly 70% of records from WWI were lost/damaged, could it be the case?  My mum has a local newspaper clipping about it. Unfortunately she didn't inherit the medal, but my grandad (his son) also served in the military and was proud of his father's achievement. I'm not sure how medal roles work, would there be a different role if he was in a different location or in hospital when they were issued? 

 

1 hour ago, Grovetown said:

 

I've checked both the medal index card and the medal rolls for Donald MacVicar 14425 Labour Corps/ 5485 Camerons; and there is no reference to him having being in the DoW (WR).

 

Could the record be lost/damaged? Or a spelling mistake as his name was MacVicar but frequently misspelled. No one has ever mentioned the DoW (WR) before, so it's definitely a mystery.

 

1 hour ago, Grovetown said:

I'm also afraid families have a terrible habit of mangling stories about individuals etc, and it is quite possible that it is not the same person in both photographs - but a brother, uncle, nephew etc etc etc.

My mum told us all about her father's war service, and it turned out she was talking total, complete rubbish. She quite angrily stuck by her version for ages, until presented with original documents which were impossible for her to deny.

Occasionally you see pictures of men in 'fancy dress' - yet these are always (never say always) full ceremonial dress; and never (never say never) in full service dress like this.

The picture looks entirely right, and I would be 99.99% sure this is an actual DoW man.

Yes, she's quite adamant it's him so I understand your 'quite angrily' comment. I don't want to push it much further haha!

He was the eldest by 10 years, so the brothers wouldn't have been old enough to serve, or make Corporal. He has cousins born in Australia, so I doubt it could be them as I don't believe they served. There are two more from Glasgow; Roderick who is believed to have been killed in Antwerp in 1915, so pre this pic which is allegedly 1918. And another Donald MacVicar, who is in the attached photo. 

 

1 hour ago, Grovetown said:

 

760 Area Employment Company.

Thank you! You've got a keen eye for handwriting.

 

 

[rhonalyall]

26 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

It's possible that service with the DoW was at home (which shouldn't usually therefore appear on the medal index card and so can be very difficult to prove) but as GT points there's certainly the option that it could be a mistaken identity

 

Craig

Thanks Craig, that's an interesting possibility - would that have been a less labour intensive regiment that he could have been posted to after the 1915 injury (recuperation at Huddersfield) and prior to going back across with the Labour Corps? I've never heard of them so will have to look them up. 

 

This is him 'after' the war... I'd guess if he was discharged in 1919 it would be about then, and I'd say it's definitely the same man.

[ss002d6252]

Quote

Thanks Craig, that's an interesting possibility - would that have been a less labour intensive regiment that he could have been posted to after the 1915 injury (recuperation at Huddersfield) and prior to going back across with the Labour Corps? I've never heard of them so will have to look them up. 

In principal it could have happened that way - without a service number though very difficult to tell.

Craig

[rhonalyall]

13 minutes ago, JackGriffin1933 said:

 

The cap and coat are both post-1914 introductions; so he'd already been to France and wounded by the time they were issued.

It seems unlikely to post a wounded chap into the DoW for home service only and then either back to the Camerons (second wound) and then to the LC; or straight to the LC.

That's helpful to know about issues - it's amazing you can tell these things! 

I'm not sure what happened in the time between 1915 injury and 1919 discharge; I guess a lot can happen in war over that timespan.

 

13 minutes ago, JackGriffin1933 said:

Also: if the kilted man in picture 5 is - as two observers have stated - pre-1908 Militia, then the Donald MacVicar in question cannot be older than 11 at the time (DoB 1897). Is that even possible?

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

 

 

 

His DOB was June 1897 and is the eldest son. They were all crofters so I can't imagine how they would have military uniforms pre WWI as his father and uncles were certainly crofters too (there are detailed records of that).

I find it hard to guess ages; he does look very young, but again quite certain it's the same person. It may be a case of 'dress up', or trying on someone's old uniform while waiting for his to be issued? 

 

 

Edited 13 April , 2017 by rhonalyall
missed first comment

[Grovetown]

Confusing now as Jack has quoted and edited a post that I altered, and then deleted his response. So he looks like he's writing as me!

 

7 minutes ago, rhonalyall said:

 

It may be a case of 'dress up', or trying on someone's old uniform while waiting for his to be issued? 

 

It is possible, but the age thing is bothering me.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, rhonalyall said:

I really appreciate your advice, it's great to get this type of information. 

 

Thank you for deciphering the 'DAG' bit. That was quite interesting to find out; it starts bringing these documents to life. 

I read that nearly 70% of records from WWI were lost/damaged, could it be the case?  My mum has a local newspaper clipping about it. Unfortunately she didn't inherit the medal, but my grandad (his son) also served in the military and was proud of his father's achievement. I'm not sure how medal roles work, would there be a different role if he was in a different location or in hospital when they were issued? 

 

Could the record be lost/damaged? Or a spelling mistake as his name was MacVicar but frequently misspelled. No one has ever mentioned the DoW (WR) before, so it's definitely a mystery.

 

Yes, she's quite adamant it's him so I understand your 'quite angrily' comment. I don't want to push it much further haha!

He was the eldest by 10 years, so the brothers wouldn't have been old enough to serve, or make Corporal. He has cousins born in Australia, so I doubt it could be them as I don't believe they served. There are two more from Glasgow; Roderick who is believed to have been killed in Antwerp in 1915, so pre this pic which is allegedly 1918. And another Donald MacVicar, who is in the attached photo. 

 

Thank you! You've got a keen eye for handwriting.

 

 

 

Donald McVicar is shown in the uniform of an Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders battalion and is wearing the Volunteer Service medal, which indicates long service as a part-time soldier. He is wearing a senior non commissioned officers sash but has no badge of rank on his upper arms so they must be on his lower arms, out of sight and thus he must be a regimental quartermaster sergeant, or a sergeant major, or a drum major.

Edited 13 April , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[rhonalyall]

1 minute ago, Grovetown said:

Confusing now as Jack has quoted and edited a post that I altered, and then deleted his response. So he looks like he's writing as me!

I thought a response went missing!

 

1 minute ago, Grovetown said:

 

It is possible, but the age thing is bothering me.

That he's too young to be wearing this uniform if it's pre-1908? Definitely born 1897 as I have his birth certificate and he lived till nearly 100 so I remember him.

Trying to google CH uniforms and dates, but this is clearly a major research topic!! 

 

...update, the photo has 'Cameron Barracks Inverness' on the back and my mum said it was taken when he joined up (he did join in Inverness, bearing in mind he'd have to have made a fair trip from the Islands I can't see him going there often.) Would they have had ceremonial dress for photos for the family as their sons went off to war?

 

[rhonalyall]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Donald McVicar is shown in the uniform of an Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders and is wearing the Volunteer Service medal, which indicates long service as a part-time soldier. He is wearing a senior non commissioned officers sash but has no badge of rank on his upper arms so they must be on his lower arms, out of sight and thus he must be a regimental quartermaster sergeant, or a sergeant major, or a drum major.

 

Fantastic, thanks so much for that information - I didn't know anything about him. I like his badger sporran though. Will have to look more into that now. Thank you!

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, rhonalyall said:

I thought a response went missing!

 

That he's too young to be wearing this uniform if it's pre-1908? Definitely born 1897 as I have his birth certificate and he lived till nearly 100 so I remember him.

Trying to google CH uniforms and dates, but this is clearly a major research topic!! 

 

...update, the photo has 'Cameron Barracks Inverness' on the back and my mum said it was taken when he joined up (he did join in Inverness, bearing in mind he'd have to have made a fair trip from the Islands I can't see him going there often.) Would they have had ceremonial dress for photos for the family as their sons went off to war?

 

 

RE your last paragraph many young rural men especially joined the militia battalion of their local regiment, which often provided financial support in bad harvests.  They were required to complete 56-days initial training and then go home with an obligation to attend an annual training camp of not more than 27 days.  In return they received an annual cash bounty.  For men who particularly enjoyed a soldiers life the militia offered a short cut into the regular army without attending basic training and they could go straight to a regular battalion if they opted for full-time service.  The regimental depot and HQ for both regular and militia battalions was at Cameron barracks, Inverness and the location where both categories of soldier completed their initial training.

Edited 13 April , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[Stebie9173]

His 14282 number in the Labour Corps dates from the Corps creation in early 1917. At that point numbers were allocated in batches to units. In this case 14282 belongs to a batch of numbers (#13804 to #14400)  allocated to No. 24 Company Labour Corps created in May 1917 from ........ 12th Battalion Duke of Wellingtons (West Riding) Regiment.

 

 

Steve.

[FROGSMILE]

12th (Labour) Battalion DWR formed March 1916 at Marton Hall, near Middlesbrough and went to France.  To Third Army Troops. April 1917 became 24th and 25th Companies of Labour Corps.

Source: Brig EA James OBE TD.

Edited 13 April , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

5 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Donald McVicar is shown in the uniform of an Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders battalion and is wearing the Volunteer Service medal, which indicates long service as a part-time soldier. He is wearing a senior non commissioned officers sash but has no badge of rank on his upper arms so they must be on his lower arms, out of sight and thus he must be a regimental quartermaster sergeant, or a sergeant major, or a drum major.

I quite agree with your assessment.  I am inclined to think that he is a RQMS because of the black or brown belt which was a common distinction for QMSs at least in the Scottish regiments.