Uniform Identification Help

[Grovetown]

10 hours ago, Stebie9173 said:

His 14282 number in the Labour Corps dates from the Corps creation in early 1917. At that point numbers were allocated in batches to units. In this case 14282 belongs to a batch of numbers (#13804 to #14400)  allocated to No. 24 Company Labour Corps created in May 1917 from ........ 12th Battalion Duke of Wellingtons (West Riding) Regiment.

 

 

Steve.

 

His Labour Corps no. is 14425, not 14282, so presumably in the next batch. How does that affect things?

 

Cheers,

 

GT. 

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, gordon92 said:

I quite agree with your assessment.  I am inclined to think that he is a RQMS because of the black or brown belt which was a common distinction for QMSs at least in the Scottish regiments.

 

Yes, that makes sense as the brown leather belt with clasp DIEU ET MON DROIT and fitted with two carriages (slings) was worn with khaki drab as a last vestige of the battalion staff's arming with swords.

[Stebie9173]

1 hour ago, Grovetown said:

 

His Labour Corps no. is 14425, not 14282, so presumably in the next batch. How does that affect things?

 

Cheers,

 

GT. 

 

Well It makes me an idiot....

 

 

But that puts him in the 25th Labour Company (#14401 to #15000) also derived from the 12th Battalion Duke of Wellingtons (West Riding) Regiment at the same point in time.

 

 

Steve.

[Grovetown]

16 minutes ago, Stebie9173 said:

 

Well It makes me an idiot....

 

 

But that puts him in the 25th Labour Company (#14401 to #15000) also derived from the 12th Battalion Duke of Wellingtons (West Riding) Regiment at the same point in time.

 

 

Steve.

 

Far from it - it clears up the DoW (WR) thing nicely: shame it doesn't appear on the available documents.

 

Remaining frustration is not being able to trace his 1914 Star - I've even been through all the Ms on the Camerons roll, and just can't see him (even allowing for potential misspellings of MacVicar. With the exception of the first letter: I don't see BacVicar, DacVicar etc being a likely error).

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

[rhonalyall]

54 minutes ago, Grovetown said:

 

Far from it - it clears up the DoW (WR) thing nicely: shame it doesn't appear on the available documents.

I'm absolutely delighted it clears that up! 

 

54 minutes ago, Grovetown said:

Remaining frustration is not being able to trace his 1914 Star - I've even been through all the Ms on the Camerons roll, and just can't see him (even allowing for potential misspellings of MacVicar. With the exception of the first letter: I don't see BacVicar, DacVicar etc being a likely error).

Thank you for looking into it for me. It is a strange one; it's a shame that it's not recorded officially but at least the family know. (The paper articles talk of him being the youngest of four sons which is not correct). I'd also heard he'd lied about his age, but I thought you could sign up at 16, not knowing it was 18. 

 

1 hour ago, Stebie9173 said:

 

Well It makes me an idiot....

 

 

But that puts him in the 25th Labour Company (#14401 to #15000) also derived from the 12th Battalion Duke of Wellingtons (West Riding) Regiment at the same point in time.

 

 

Steve.

That's absolutely fantastic you managed to find that out! Very much appreciated. 

[rhonalyall]

I was sent these, but as you can see the regimental numbers don't match. I'd wondered if it was his cousin Donald MacVicar (although the other advice regarding his uniform is that he was in the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders) and I think these relate to The Camerons

Edited 14 April , 2017 by rhonalyall

[FROGSMILE]

His enlistment date of November 1916 fits with his date of birth and would clarify why he did not receive a Mons Star.  A leg wound might also explain how a subsequent medical board might have found him fit for only a Labour unit.

Edited 14 April , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[Grovetown]

Different bloke, same name.

 

Image 1. The roll is for the British War Medal and Victory Medal for the Camerons: he is on this.

 

Your Donald MacVicar is on the British War Medal and Victory Medal roll, also showing his old Camerons no., for the Labour Corps.

 

And they both have separate Medal Index Cards: image 2 confirms the Silver War Badge (image 3) for this man, below.

 

Image 3: and you can see from the Silver War Badge roll that this Donald MacVicar enlisted on November 29th 1916; whereas your man was a 1914 entry.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

[Grovetown]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

His enlistment date of November 1916 fits with his date of birth would obviously explain why he did not receive a Mons Star.  A leg wound might also explain how a subsequent medical board might have found him fit for only a Labour unit.

 

It's a different man: the documents at the beginning of the thread show Rhona's Donald MacVicar being wounded in both November 1914 (and before the 22nd cut-off for eligibility) and again in May 1915.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, Grovetown said:

 

It's a different man: the documents at the beginning of the thread show Rhona's Donald MacVicar being wounded in both November 1914 (and before the 22nd cut-off for eligibility) and again in May 1915.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

 

Yes, I can see that now.  It's easy to understand how such misunderstandings occur with similar names.

Edited 14 April , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[rhonalyall]

2 hours ago, Grovetown said:

Different bloke, same name.

 

Image 1. The roll is for the British War Medal and Victory Medal for the Camerons: he is on this.

Your Donald MacVicar is on the British War Medal and Victory Medal roll, also showing his old Camerons no., for the Labour Corps.

And they both have separate Medal Index Cards: image 2 confirms the Silver War Badge (image 3) for this man, below.

Image 3: and you can see from the Silver War Badge roll that this Donald MacVicar enlisted on November 29th 1916; whereas your man was a 1914 entry.

 

Thought it was all for a different man as they're all 203201.

 

So I guess if I could find the Medal Index Card (image 2) for my Donald MacVicar then it should list his medals? Do you know if they kept at Kew? 

 

Update...Ancestry has an open record weekend for the Bank Holiday. No star listed

Edited 14 April , 2017 by rhonalyall

[rhonalyall]

15 hours ago, gordon92 said:

I quite agree with your assessment.  I am inclined to think that he is a RQMS because of the black or brown belt which was a common distinction for QMSs at least in the Scottish regiments.

His great niece has informed me he was a Company Sergeant Major, which I think confirms the initial suggestion. I'm not sure at what stage in his military career this photo was taken. 

[FROGSMILE]

33 minutes ago, rhonalyall said:

 His great niece has informed me he was a Company Sergeant Major, which I think confirms the initial suggestion. I'm not sure at what stage in his military career this photo was taken. 

 

The uniform, sash and belt do fit for a company sergeant major (appointment) whose rank, after a 1915 reorganisation, was elevated to the then new category of Warrant Officer Class II.  The RQMS became WOII at the same time, but remained senior by appointment.  Both, therefore, wore the sword belt shown.

Edited 14 April , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

6 hours ago, rhonalyall said:

His great niece has informed me he was a Company Sergeant Major, which I think confirms the initial suggestion. I'm not sure at what stage in his military career this photo was taken. 

 

6 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

The uniform, sash and belt do fit for a company sergeant major (appointment) whose rank, after a 1915 reorganisation, was elevated to the then new category of Warrant Officer Class II.  The RQMS became WOII at the same time, but remained senior by appointment.  Both, therefore, wore the sword belt shown.

That does make sense especially since the Argylls did accord the RSM (SM pre-1915) with some officer uniform distinctions which are not seen in the OP.

[rhonalyall]

Can anyone identify the uniform in these? They are two brothers but I'm unsure if they would have served in the same company. (sorry again for using the wrong terminology!)

[rhonalyall]

...and these ones are random; unfortunately nobody seems to know who they are so perhaps the uniform ID might give some clues. 

Thanks in advance anyone that can help!

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, rhonalyall said:

Can anyone identify the uniform in these? They are two brothers but I'm unsure if they would have served in the same company. (sorry again for using the wrong terminology!)

 

Picture 1 is unusual in that both men do not have standard service dress jackets, as shown by the scalloped flaps on the chest pockets. They also have badges on upper arms that I cannot make out.

 

pictures 2 and 3 show men of the embryo Royal Air Force, formed on 1st Apr 1918 and wearing RAF service dress and caps with patent leather peaks.  Note the absence of shoulder straps and cloth belts with rectangular metal buckle.  Photo from around 1919-1920.

Edited 16 April , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[rhonalyall]

48 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Picture 1 is unusual in that both men do not have standard service dress jackets, as shown by the scalloped flaps on the chest pockets. They also have badges on upper arms that I cannot make out.

Thank you!

I did think the pockets seemed unusual compared to most of the other photos. The man on the right is the older brother of the blonde man (pic 3) and is in the middle of pic 2. So I wonder if he'd also likely be RAF.

Would you have also expected to see a belt?

The one on the left has a chevron, so is the one on the right a private as he has none?

It appears he also has a strip above his chest pocket while the other man does not. Would that possibly be other badges?

 

...update, the photo was taken in Eisenbahnstrasse, Duren, Germany if that helps at all?

 

Quote

pictures 2 and 3 show men of the embryo Royal Air Force, formed on 1st Apr 1918 and wearing RAF service dress and caps with patent leather peaks.  Note the absence of shoulder straps and cloth belts with rectangular metal buckle.  Photo from around 1919-1920.

Thank you for pointing out the shoulder straps, or lack of in the 2nd & 3rd. Please forgive my ignorance but do shoulder straps typically not appear on RAF uniforms? Which would rule out my first supposition of both brothers being in the same service. 

 

Edited 16 April , 2017 by rhonalyall
Update to location photograph taken

[Muerrisch]

The RAF group may be a little later than Frogsmile suggests, although I cannot put my finger on a convincing reason to say so.  Looks sort of Aircraftsman Shaw [TE Lawrence] period. Sorry to be unusually vague.

 

RAF expert needed.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, rhonalyall said:

Thank you!

I did think the pockets seemed unusual compared to most of the other photos. The man on the right is the older brother of the blonde man (pic 3) and is in the middle of pic 2. So I wonder if he'd also likely be RAF.

Would you have also expected to see a belt?

The one on the left has a chevron, so is the one on the right a private as he has none?

It appears he also has a strip above his chest pocket while the other man does not. Would that possibly be other badges?

 

...update, the photo was taken in Eisenbahnstrasse, Duren, Germany if that helps at all?

 

Thank you for pointing out the shoulder straps, or lack of in the 2nd & 3rd. Please forgive my ignorance but do shoulder straps typically not appear on RAF uniforms? Which would rule out my first supposition of both brothers being in the same service. 

 

 

The pocket flaps are rather intriguing not least because there appears to be shoulder patches, as per the usual 1902 pattern service dress.  Some men did arrange for unit tailors to alter a 'best' jacket to smarten it up, but such modifications are more rare for men of low rank as these are.  The man with the single stripe has been 'appointed' lance corporal, which was not a rank but a trusted position for a man to take charge of a few others at the lowest level. The other man appears to be a private.  I don't think that either of them are dressed in the uniform of the army predecessors of the RAF, the Royal Flying Corps (RFC).  The strip above the pockets of the private are medal ribbons.  It was not unusual for men to take off their belts and head dress when off duty and seated in a relaxed situation.

 

The removal of shoulder straps was a very early feature of RAF uniform, as was the use of a cloth belt for general wear around air stations.

Edited 16 April , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

23 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

The RAF group may be a little later than Frogsmile suggests, although I cannot put my finger on a convincing reason to say so.  Looks sort of Aircraftsman Shaw [TE Lawrence] period. Sorry to be unusually vague.

 

RAF expert needed.

 

The uniforms appear to be 1918 pattern, khaki drab 'type 1' (type 2 had a buttoned rather than buckled belt and all buttons were leather).  The cap badges are the gilding metal type issued to replace the woven pattern from 1919.  They are also wearing the late 1918 pale blue, or off-white on black eagle badges.

Edited 17 April , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

On 16 April 2017 at 16:33, rhonalyall said:

...and these ones are random; unfortunately nobody seems to know who they are so perhaps the uniform ID might give some clues. 

Thanks in advance anyone that can help!

 

Picture 1.  Shows a soldier in WW2 simplified pattern battle dress with exposed buttons. I am unsure of the cap badge in his 1938 pattern folding field cap, but it might be Royal Signals if the same man as in Picture 2.

 

Picture 2.  shows a mounted duty soldier wearing 1922 pattern service dress, probably in the mid 1930s.  I think that his cap and collar badges might be Royal Corps of Signals.

 

Picture 3.  Is I think a Royal Navy Petty Officer circa 1940s.

 

Picture 4.  Is a War Department, or Admiralty police man.

 

Picture 5.  Is an ordinary rating of the Royal Navy, circa 1940s (no name of ship on his cap tally for security reasons), probably with his brother.

 

Edited 17 April , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[Steven Broomfield]

Picture 1 seems to be wearing the ribbon of the 1939-1943 Star (later became the 39-45 Star), and I'd agree about 2 being a Scalyback (Royal Signals).

[rhonalyall]

On 16/04/2017 at 20:18, FROGSMILE said:

 

The pocket flaps are rather intriguing not least because there appears to be shoulder patches, as per the usual 1902 pattern service dress.  Some men did arrange for unit tailors to alter a 'best' jacket to smarten it up, but such modifications are more rare for men of low rank as these are.  The man with the single stripe has been 'appointed' lance corporal, which was not a rank but a trusted position for a man to take charge of a few others at the lowest level. The other man appears to be a private.  I don't think that either of them are dressed in the uniform of the army predecessors of the RAF, the Royal Flying Corps (RFC).  The strip above the pockets of the private are medal ribbons.  It was not unusual for men to take off their belts and head dress when off duty and seated in a relaxed situation.

 

The removal of shoulder straps was a very early feature of RAF uniform, as was the use of a cloth belt for general wear around air stations.

Thanks very much for this information...they mystery continues!

 

On 16/04/2017 at 22:31, FROGSMILE said:

 

The uniforms appear to be 1918 pattern, khaki drab 'type 1' (type 2 had a buttoned rather than buckled belt and all buttons were leather).  The cap badges are the gilding metal type issued to replace the woven pattern from 1919.  They are also wearing the late 1918 pale blue, or off-white on black eagle badges.

Thank you, at least that gives me a bit of a timescale to look at. 

 

On 16/04/2017 at 23:11, FROGSMILE said:

 

Picture 1.  Shows a soldier in WW2 simplified pattern battle dress with exposed buttons. I am unsure of the cap badge in his 1938 pattern folding field cap, but it might be Royal Signals if the same man as in Picture 2.

Thank you; I'm not convinced it's the same man, but it's hard to tell. 

 

On 16/04/2017 at 23:11, FROGSMILE said:

Picture 2.  shows a mounted duty soldier wearing 1922 pattern service dress, probably in the mid 1930s.  I think that his cap and collar badges might be Royal Corps of Signals.

So pre-WW2? I'll have to look for those that served out-with the wars

 

On 16/04/2017 at 23:11, FROGSMILE said:

Picture 3.  Is I think a Royal Navy Petty Officer circa 1940s.

 

Picture 4.  Is a War Department, or Admiralty police man.

Thank you; I thought he looked more like a policeman than soldier. 

 

On 16/04/2017 at 23:11, FROGSMILE said:

Picture 5.  Is an ordinary rating of the Royal Navy, circa 1940s (no name of ship on his cap tally for security reasons), probably with his brother.

 

Thank you for suggesting a possible date. 

 

All your advice has been hugely appreciated!

 

On 17/04/2017 at 06:46, Steven Broomfield said:

Picture 1 seems to be wearing the ribbon of the 1939-1943 Star (later became the 39-45 Star), and I'd agree about 2 being a Scalyback (Royal Signals).

Thank you; so this would be taken after 1943. Appreciated!