Kitchener's Army - Re-enlisted Men

[Guest]

I have occasionally read that when Kitchener's Army was raised, particularly K1 and K2, there was a dearth of NCOs. It is widely understood that Line Infantry regiments had to send 3 Officers and 15 NOCs to help raise the first Kitchener Battalions (K1). This has understandably led to perceptions that Kitchener's Army had a massive shortage of trained NCOs.  

 

I have sometimes wondered how this claim resolves with the fact that the General Annual Reports on the British Army (GARBA) show that close to 75,000 time-expired men returned to the Colours* by Sep 1914, just 8 weeks after the declaration of the War. This number grew to 130,000 by Sep 1916. Roughly speaking 94,000 re-enlisted into the Line Infantry (72%), which would work out at around 1,269 re-enlisted men per Line Infantry Regiment (paired battalion). This presumably included an unknown number of former NCOs.

 

A few days ago the Queen's Own Gazette was released online. Among other fascinating material was a list dated March 1915 showing the names and ranks of some 195 ex NCOs who had re-enlisted and joined the Queen's Own (Royal West Kent) Regt. The tables rather helpfully showed how they were employed. Some 134 (two-thirds) had previously served with the Queen's Own, the vast majority as Regulars:

 

Depot...........................28

6th (Service) Bn............64

7th (Service) Bn............42

8th (Service) Bn............41

9th (Service) Bn............20

 

Which suggests that the Service battalions were not as deprived of men with military training as we might occasionally be led to believe. I thought it worth sharing as it slightly challenges some popular understanding of the raising of Kitchener's Army

 

The 6th Bn had the following from re-enlisted NCOs:

One SM

One RQMS

Four CSM

Four CQMS

ORd Room Sgt

Sgt Tailor

Sgt Cook

Sgt SHoe Maker

27 Sgts

6 A/Sgts

2 L/Sgts

14 Cpls

1 Acting Cpl

 

Every Platoon would have a Sgt with prior training as well as at least one and probably two or three other NCOs with prior training. It is a reasonable assumption that re-enlisted Private soldiers outnumbered the re-enlisted NCOs, I would hazard a guess that every NCO position in this Battalion could have been filled with a man with prior military training - Ptes stepping up as L/Cpls. Added to this would be the 15 Regular NCOs sent from the 1st Battalion in Aug 1914. 

 

 

* 74,846 to end Sep 1914

   42,634 to end Sep 1915....cumulative total 117,480

   12,392 to end Sep 1916....cumulative total 129,872

 

 

[Muerrisch]

Most interesting thank you.

But ( always a but) surely the 15 serving ncos were for depot/ reserve gpbattalion as staff trainers. We cant use them twice.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Martin

Most interesting thank you.

But ( always a but) surely the 15 serving ncos were for depot/ reserve gpbattalion as staff trainers. We cant use them twice.

 

My understanding has always been that the 3 Officers and 15 NCOs were all sent to the first Kitchener Battalions. It is there that the men were trained. The Depot and Reserve Battalions already had their own Staff.

 

Initially there was a reluctance for former NCOs to re-enlist as it was uncertain (in Aug-Sep 1914) whether they would retain their former Ranks. This was clarified in an AO of sometime in 1914 which opened the floodgates for re-enlisting NCOs.  MG

 

Edit. The diary evidence supports this as does the Army List. The named Officers almost in every case turn up in the K1 Battalions; the Captain usually (but not always) as the Adjutant to the CO who was typically the Depot Major, and the subalterns are employed in other roles within a Battalion that usually has one or two Indian Army Officers as Company Commanders and Reserve of Officers in the 2IC and other Coy Commander roles.

 

The 3 + 15 were initially sent to the Depots as the new locations for the K1 battalions had yet to be established. Once a location had been organised they left the Depots. 

 

Example 1. A random example from the 1st Bn East Surrey Regt:

 

11th Aug 1914.  Battalion marched by train loads about 10 miles.  Many Reservists found to have badly fitting boots probably due to submission of incorrect returns to OC Records on transfer to Army Reserve.  As far as possible these boots were changed.  Reservists again firing on 30 yards range.

War Establishment of Officers reduced by 1 Captain and 2 Subs, who, together with 15 NCOs had been sent to the Depot for training new units. The Officers were Capt G O FARRINGTON, 2 Lts W H MARTIN and G H HENSON.  

Capt P C WYNTER also proceeded to the Depot vice Capt J P BENSON Reserve of Officers, taken on the Establishment of the Battalion.

 

Capt Farrington subsequently appears as a Company Commander in the 7th (Service) Bn formed in Kingston Upon Thames in Aug 1914, Martin and Henson also appear in the same battalion. The point is that they are with the K1 Battalion and not the Depot (also in Kingston).

 

Example 2. 1st Bn Bedfordshire Regt: 

 

6th Aug 1914. Battalion mobilized at MULLINGAR. Everything proceeded smoothly. mobilisation completed according to schedule, but did not move as early as expected. Capt Le HUQUET Lt HITCH & 2 Lt BIRCH sent to Depot to train new units.

 

Capt Le Huquet, Lt Hitch and 2 Lt Birch all appear in the 6th (Service) Bn ...(K1)

Edited 12 May , 2017 by Guest

[Muerrisch]

My understanding is based on the sequence of orders appended below, but you may be correct, and that they were simply mis-used and hoovered into the first New Army unit.

 

Do your WDs or Histories support your understanding explicitly please?

 

7^th August. Home Line battalions to send one captain, two subalterns, two serving sergeants, 13 other sergeants and corporals as drill instructors for New Army unit, the latter may be reservists. WOI.41

10^th August. Reserve battalions to send one captain and one subaltern to Depôt to assist training new units. WOI.59.

11^th August. Depôts to train New Army units. WOI.65.

16^th August. As each 100 New Army men become clothed at Depôt to be sent to Training Centre. WOI.112.

17^th August. All new recruits aged 30 years and over to Reserve battalion not to New Army.  WOI.117.

20^th August. Reserve battalions to be grown to 2000 Other Ranks but only after “the service battalion” has been formed. After this, fill the Depôt, after this, divert to another regiment. WOI.288.

[stiletto_33853]

Interesting as always Martin.

 

OK, 8th Rifle Brigade, Commanding officer states that the NCO's they had, were in most cases not up to the task, and were certainly not used to training recruits stating that there was a shortage of NCO's generally. Some were even NCO's in the cookhouse, cobblers etc. in their previous service, causing him some consternation, concern and anxiety. The officers that had been sent to them were quickly promoted or sent elsewhere, indeed the original C.O. was promoted to command a Brigade very shortly after formation until Ronnie Maclachlan came along to command.

 

9th Rifle Brigade, Commanding officer had a similar experience stating that most of the re-enlitments who had soldiering in their previous service had been sent overseas or were in the process of being sent overseas. However he was a crusty self opinionated Gurkha Officer.

 

9th K.R.R.C. seems to have blessed with some experienced NCO's, certainly the C.O. seems to have relied on them with fair results.

 

All K1 battalions

 

 

 

As your figures state, I am sure they were there but of what calibre, soldiering NCO's with good soldiering experience or cookhouse NCO's etc.

 

Andy

 

 

Edited 12 May , 2017 by stiletto_33853

[Guest]

I have about 70 diaries that record the orders to send  3 Officers and 15 NCOs to train the New Armies. The Depots only processed the recruits and once this was done they were sent to the K1 Battalion (and K2 , K3 etc). While the Officers and men were initailly sent to the Deports in almost every case the Officers (who are easier to trace) appear in the K1 Battalion. I would hazard a guess at 95% of them. I feel a spreadsheet coming on.

 

The co-location of the Deport and some of the K1 battalions is a source of confusion. 

 

later, I believe as the Army expanded further the Depots had some role in training, but this was well after 1915 if the Monthly returns are any indication. The Kitchener Battalions trained their own men and the Reserve battalions trained the reinforcements for the Regular battalions. 

[Muerrisch]

Thank you

 

However:

 

The co-location of the Deport and some of the K1 battalions is a source of confusion. 

 

Although I am often confused, I believe that I do understand the complexities of Depot, Reserve Battalion, and early Kitcheners being colocated. This is probably an aspect that had not been properly thought through pre-war, although much else was brilliantly planned.

 

My opinion remains that many of the famous fifteen would be held to do training,  perhaps at unit level: even if only because it makes sense.

[Guest]

I am plodding through the diaries. The first 6 Divisions generally recorded events from 5th Aug, and 7th Div onward started recording from Oct, so we have potentially 76 sets of records (= 6 x 12 Battalions plus 4 Bns of 19th Inf Bde). While most diarists recorded the War Office instruction to send 3 Officers and 15 NCOs, most failed to record the names. However sufficient numbers did; 12 battalions (36 Officers)  so we have a 16% sample....all but one of the Officers can be traced to a Kitchener Battalion (not Depot) by May 1915 according to the Army List.  The outlier ends up in a Reserve Bn, presumably sick or injured. Most Kitchener Battalions were located nowhere near their Depots which would eliminate any possibility for confusion. 11th DIv for example consolidated near Grantham. Some Regiments put all three Officers in K1, some spread them between K1 and K2. The senior Lt typically became the Adjutant and the Captain became a Company Commander.

 

With regards to the NCOs these are impossible to trace (so far) as none were mentioned by name, although the 1915 Star rolls may reveal some although by time they deployed some unfit regulars may well have been drafted in. The orders quoted in the diaries specifically stated that they were to be sent to the Depot (sic) in order to train the New Army Battalions (sic). The subsequent relocation of K1 and k2 away from Depots is understood. If the Officers went to the New Army battalions to a man, I assume the NCOs did as well, otherwise the Officers had no-one to delegate to. Depots in the pre-war period had establishments of roughly 100, which would have included drill instructors. Where more detail has been recorded on the 15 NCOs there seems to have been a heavy skew towards sending Reservist NCOs in the ratio of 2 Regulars to 13 Reservists.. 

 

Example from 1st Bn The Buffs (East Kent Regt):

 

7th Aug 1914. 3rd day of mobilization.  Capt B E FURLEY, Lt T WHELER and 2 Lt E H ALLEN and two serving Sgts and 13 other Sgts and Cpls sent to Depot for one of the new units to be raised.  Authority - WO Telegram. 

 

My underlining. Any mistakes are mine. MG

 

Here are the weekly returns for 1914. The first shows the co-location of the Depot and some (but not all) New Army Recruits (dated 3rd Oct 1914) the second (dated 10th Oct 1914) shows the same with the New Army men removed. On the same return is a separate entry for the 9th Bn with over 1,100 all ranks including 20 Sgts.. Note the split in allocation of NCOs under the Depot. So we have NCOs at the Depot, NCOs at the Depot designated New Army and NCOs with the New ARmy K1 Battalion.

 

The return on the same date (10th Oct 1914) shows 20 Sgts against the 9th Bn RWF....so both the Depot and the New Army were in separate locations with separate Establishments and separate Weekly returns. Where the 15 NCOs were is a matter of debate. I would argue that they were most needed in the 9th Bn RWF (with 1,100 recruits) rather than the Depot with just 116 recruits (Edited)

 

Note the Depot establishment of 24 Sgts. 

 

 

 

[Guest]

Here is the nominal roll of re-enlisted NCOs serving at the QORWKR Depot in March 1915. If NCO establishment was limited to 1 WO and 24 Sgts it would suggest these were largely filled with re-enlisted men.  MG

 

 

[Shopop]

I have been researching my family tree and my great grandfathers military history sheet has “ specially enlisted nco under Kitchener’s army “ I believe he was a quarter master sergeant. He served 62 days. What does that mean? Where can I learn more?  

[mancpal]

Shopop,

It may be a better idea to begin a new thread that deals with your specific questions. If you can provide as much information as you can (military or otherwise) you will find many  forum members will jump at the chance to assist. 
The type of knowledge that will help includes, full name, DoB, DoD, addresses (village/town/city), parents details, siblings details. If you know his trade/profession both pre and post war, e.g. a man used to dealing with horses prior to service would be more likely to serve in a role involving horses in a similar way that a coal miner may find himself in a tunnelling company. 
You don’t have to know them all, simply post as much detail as you have. 
I still think a specific thread would be better if the mods spot this. 
Best of luck with your search.

Simon

[Shopop]

Thank you Simon, useful info and kind of you to reply to me. I will do that. 

[Keith_history_buff]

From a secondary source:

It was announced that any re-enlisted ex-Regular NCO up to the age of forty-five would be 'posted wherever possible to a unit of his former corps in the nex six divisions and army troops and promoted forthwith to the rank he held on discharge.' The upper age limit for re-enlisted NCOs was extended to fifty before the end of the month.

Source:
Kitchener’s Army: The Raising of the New Armies 1914 – 1916
ISBN 978-1-84415-585-9

Author: Peter Simkins

 

A specific observation from the late Martin Gillott, in respect of the Loyal North Lancs 

On 25/01/2015 at 19:15, Guest said:

Here is something of interest:

Army Order 341 dated 30th Aug 1914: Enlistments for the Regular Army and Special Reserve: "...except in the case of Cavalry and Foot Guards, all ex-regular Non-commissioned Officers irrespective of age and all men under 35 years of age will be posted to units of the new 6 Divisions of Army Troops. Other men will be posted to Reserve units of the Regular Army...."

What this means is that every re-enlisted ex-line infantryman under 35 was diverted to K1, as well as every ex-NCO. The Regular Army had to make do with the 35-40 year olds (later 35-45 year olds). Interesting on a number of levels. In proactical terms this meant that (generally speaking) the cohorts of 1897 to 1902 who re-enlisted were sent to bolster K1. The Regular battalions were left with men who first enlisted in 1896 or earlier.

[snip]

I suspect the AO was slightly relaxed, but it perhaps illustrates the lengths to which the Army was prepared to go to in order to maintain their multiple objectives of keeping the Regular Army manned while raising a New Army.

MG

At the start of Army Order 341 it mentions:

'Certain selected men who were non-commis-sioned officers in the Regular army above the rank of serjeant at time of discharge may be accepted up to the age of 50 years.' 

I have not been able to find the army order that states 'any re-enlisted ex-Regular NCO... would be 'posted wherever possible to a unit of his former corps... and promoted forthwith to the rank he held on discharge.' which Simkins refers to. The evidence this happened is borne out by the surviving service records. It made sense to re-employ the skilled manpower of former NCOs, at a time when the New Armies were being created. That said, of these older men, some of them would be honourably discharged within 6 months for medical reasons, as they were no longer in their prime, physically.

Army Order 341 can be viewed on the following thread

 

[Keith_history_buff]

36 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

From a secondary source:

It was announced that any re-enlisted ex-Regular NCO up to the age of forty-five would be 'posted wherever possible to a unit of his former corps in the nex six divisions and army troops and promoted forthwith to the rank he held on discharge.' The upper age limit for re-enlisted NCOs was extended to fifty before the end of the month.

Source:
Kitchener’s Army: The Raising of the New Armies 1914 – 1916
ISBN 978-1-84415-585-9

Author: Peter Simkins

I have not been able to find the army order that states 'any re-enlisted ex-Regular NCO... would be 'posted wherever possible to a unit of his former corps... and promoted forthwith to the rank he held on discharge.' which Simkins refers to. 

 

I did not look diligently enough.

Army Order 315
Re-enlistment of ex-Regular non-commis-sioned officers in the Regular Army.

 

[FROGSMILE]

On 25/06/2024 at 12:44, Keith_history_buff said:

I did not look diligently enough.

Army Order 315
Re-enlistment of ex-Regular non-commis-sioned officers in the Regular Army.

 

I think this photo of the then newly raised 5th (Service) Battalion of the South Wales Borderers is probably an example in case, as the mature NCOs seated have the look of a contingent of seasoned regulars and / or some time-served veterans reengaged to assist with training.  The following year the battalion was designated to become divisional pioneers.

photo courtesy ancestry.

Edited 28 June by FROGSMILE