Alternative kilts

[Lanayca]

I would appreciate the opinions and experience of others as to whether it was likely for a kilted soldier from one regiment to wear a kilt of another. I have heard of khaki coloured kilts issued in training but would a government tartan be issued as a replacement to another regiment?

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Lanayca said:

I would appreciate the opinions and experience of others as to whether it was likely for a kilted soldier from one regiment to wear a kilt of another. I have heard of khaki coloured kilts issued in training but would a government tartan be issued as a replacement to another regiment?

 

Some units wore khaki kilts, including Canadian, and there is a separate thread on this.  It would not be 'usual' for a unit to wear mixed kilts though, other than when two battalions of different regiments have been temporarily merged because of casualties.

Edited 28 May , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[Lanayca]

Cheers

[gordon92]

53 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Some units wore khaki kilts, including Canadian, and there is a separate thread on this.  It would not be usual for a unit to wear mixed kilts though, other than when two battalions of different regiments have been temporarily merged because of casualties.

Further to this point about about temporary merger because of casualties, an example of this phenomenon occurred in Feb 1916 in Mesopotamia when the 2nd Bttn Black Watch and 1st Seaforth merged because of heavy casualties until Dec 1916.  This unit, simply called the the Highland Battalion during this brief period, would have had soldiers wearing Government tartan and MacKenzie tartan.  As for the Canadians, both the 42nd and 73rd Battalions (Royal Highlanders of Canada) temporarily wore a form of khaki kilt with sparse colored stripes called the Cantlie tartan.  As the initial shortages were rectified, these kilts were replaced by Government tartan kilts.  It would be reasonable to surmise that during this replacement process, men of the same battalion would be seen wearing mixed kilts.

Edited 28 May , 2017 by gordon92

[FROGSMILE]

23 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

Further to this point about about temporary merger because of casualties, an example of this phenomenon occurred in Feb 1916 in Mesopotamia when the 2nd Bttn Black Watch and 1st Seaforth merged because of heavy casualties until Dec 1916.  This unit, simply called the the Highland Battalion during this brief period, would have had soldiers wearing Government tartan and MacKenzie tartan.  As for the Canadians, both the 42nd and 73rd Battalions (Royal Highlanders of Canada) temporarily wore a form of khaki kilt with sparse colored stripes called the Cantlie tartan.  As the initial shortages were rectified, these kilts were replaced by Government tartan kilts.  It would be reasonable to surmise that during this replacement process, men of the same battalion would be seen wearing mixed kilts.

 

Perhaps the latter scenario is what the OP has seen.

[Lanayca]

Thanks for the additional information. The thought behind my question is really how acceptable would it be to wear the wrong kilt in a living history display? I have acquired an ex army black watch kilt but had intended matching it to 9th battalion Royal Scots. With a kilt cover it will be difficult to notice however would prefer to be as accurate as possible. In either case I would not enjoy wearing the kilt for extended periods in Mesopotamia!

[Dave1418]

Hi

it probably far better to portray the usual as opposed to the very rare one off. Someone will see the error and will almost certainly highlight the fact which you can explain if they ask. Otherwise if they don't ask they'll go away believe it's another reenactor who doesn't know their subject.

regards

[gordon92]

13 hours ago, Lanayca said:

Thanks for the additional information. The thought behind my question is really how acceptable would it be to wear the wrong kilt in a living history display? I have acquired an ex army black watch kilt but had intended matching it to 9th battalion Royal Scots. With a kilt cover it will be difficult to notice however would prefer to be as accurate as possible. In either case I would not enjoy wearing the kilt for extended periods in Mesopotamia!

Indeed with a kilt cover, no one would be the wiser unless, of course, your visitors are permitted to "handle the merchandise."  It seems to me that the marginal gain of obtaining a Hunting Stewart tartan kilt to be totally correct would hardly justify the expense.

[Donny Anderson]

In late July 1918 the 2nd Bn London Scottish received reinforcements from the Gordon Highlanders, my grandfather among them. The following quote is from "The London Scottish In The Great War" 

 

"So close was the relationship of the two battalions that the Gordons were permitted to retain their kilts, a consideration which was greatly appreciated."

 

So no Hodden Gray for the Gordon replacements.

 

Donny

[gordon92]

4 hours ago, Donny Anderson said:

In late July 1918 the 2nd Bn London Scottish received reinforcements from the Gordon Highlanders, my grandfather among them. The following quote is from "The London Scottish In The Great War" 

 

"So close was the relationship of the two battalions that the Gordons were permitted to retain their kilts, a consideration which was greatly appreciated."

 

So no Hodden Gray for the Gordon replacements.

 

Donny

Interesting.  The London Scottish became formally affiliated with the Gordon Highlanders in 1937 upon the breakup of the London regiment.  Would you happen to know the reason(s) for this close relationship prior to this date?

[4thGordons]

8 hours ago, Donny Anderson said:

In late July 1918 the 2nd Bn London Scottish received reinforcements from the Gordon Highlanders, my grandfather among them. The following quote is from "The London Scottish In The Great War" 

 

"So close was the relationship of the two battalions that the Gordons were permitted to retain their kilts, a consideration which was greatly appreciated."

 

So no Hodden Gray for the Gordon replacements.

 

Donny

 

This is interesting Donny - a while ago I was trying to ID a casualty from amongst this group and then I discovered at the very back of the Gordon Highlanders volume (pt 65) of SDGW there are listings for 1/14th and 2/14th London Regiment.

Chris

[Donny Anderson]

Gordon92/Chris,

The quote above is from the London Scottish In The Great War by Mark Lord published in 2001. I have another book also titled The London Scottish In The Great War this book was edited by Lt-Col J.H. Lindley and first published in 1926 and contains the following quote,

 

"While the 2nd Battalion was at Eecke it received as reinforcement a large draft of Gordon Highlanders. This was the only draft during the whole war composed of men who did not belong to the London Scottish. The Gordon Highlanders, of course, we're not considered as strangers, as the friendliest relations had ever existed between the two regiments, while about the middle of the war the London Scottish were affiliated to the Gordons as one of their Territorial Battalions. In the special circumstances the Commanding Officer allowed the men to retain there kilts, a consideration which was greatly appreciated." 

This would have been about the 24th of July.

 

This second book also states that a contingent of 58 nco's and men under a Capt. Buckingham served with the 2nd Gordons in South Africa, joining the battalion at Ladysmith on March 24th 1900. Also this time the book states that there had "long been friendly relations between the London Scottish and the Gordon Highlanders, who had supplied them with their Adjutant and many of there sergeant instructors."

 

This would suggest there was a connection prior to the formal affiliation in 1937.

 

Hope this is of interest,

Donny

[Steven Broomfield]

I'll have a check over the weekend, but I suspect the affiliation was informally of longer-standing than the official Army arrangement.

[Donny Anderson]

Steven,

 

My thoughts as well

 

Donny

[Ian Riley]

The Liverpool Scottish (TA) were affiliated to the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders well before they actually transferred as the 10th (Scottish) Bn King's (Liverpool Regiment) to the Camerons in 1937. I have a feeling that Cameron numbers were being issued before the official transfer. Certainly PSIs and regular officers attached were coming from that source. There was a move for them to become a numbered battalion of the QOCH (TA) but this was fought off and simply became "The Liverpool Scottish, Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders (TA)"  and I suspect that the London Scottish might also have had to fend off a bid for a similar move on being officially linked to the Gordon Highlanders. In Liverpool, some  of the King's TA battalions were being reorganised into artillery or RTR units but I suspect that the Highland regiments (perhaps only the Camerons) were having problems in raising enough TA infantry 

Edited 3 June , 2017 by Ian Riley

[Ron Abbott]

There are articles in the press from the late 1890s and early 1900s which indicate connections between the London Scottish and Gordon Highlanders.  

 

The 9th Aug 1889 edition of the Press & Journal mentions members of the London Scottish entertaining members of the Sergeants' Mess of the Gordon Highlanders with a dinner at a hotel in Edinburgh.

 

The 10th Feb 1900 edition of the P & J mentions the volunteer officers and men of the Gordon Highlanders and London Scottish who will leave Aberdeen for service in South Africa with the Gordon Highlanders.

 

The 17th Feb 1900 edition of the Aberdeen Weekly Journal also has an article which mentions the officers of the 1st Volunteer Battalion, Gordon Highlanders and the 1st Aberdeen Artillery Volunteers entertaining volunteers from the London Scottish and the Gordon who had volunteered fro South Africa.  There is also mention of the London Scottish forming the,(quote), '2nd Service Company of the Volunteer Gordon Highlanders'. 

 

One interesting article is that contained in the 6th Feb 1901 edition of the P & J which reports on a speech by Colonel Balfour of the London Scottish.  He is quoted as saying that there was a strong connection between the London Scottish and the Gordon Highlanders and not only as volunteers but as regulars, the Gordon Highlanders having provided the last three adjutants and the last three sergeant-majors of the London Scottish Volunteers.  Also mentioned is the detachment of London Scottish which served with the Gordons in South Africa.  

 

On the specific subject of kilts, there is an article in the 5th Aug 1901 edition of the P & J which not only mentions the affinity between the Gordons and London Scottish but also that when the members of the London Scottish alighted at the railway station in Aberdeen, those that had served in South Africa were now wearing the brownish-grey tweed kilts, rather than the Gordon tartan which they had worn in South Africa.   

 

In 1902 there is again mention in the press of another new active service company being formed with three quarters of the men expected to come from the Gordon Highlanders and one quarter from the London Scottish.  

 

There are also a considerable number of similar articles pertaining to the Gordons and the London Scottish in South Africa. Some are adverts for portraits/photos to be taken of the Volunteers from the two regiments.

 

[gordon92]

Many thanks for this, Ron.  The information you have provided explains a lot.

[MBrockway]

Check out Army Order 250 of July 1916, published 12 July 1916, which covers inter alia the formal re-affiliations of the London Regiment battalions, including this snippet confirming the Gordon Highlanders and London Scottish were formally affiliated at least as far back as July 1916 ...

 

Likewise the Liverpool Scottish links to the QOCH as per Ian's post #15 above.

 

I'm pretty sure I've posted the complete AO 250 (11 pages) in one of our earlier topics covering the London Regt links to KRRC and RB, but cannot locate it just now!

 

I'm pretty sure also that Broomers was involved in the discussion too, so this may well be where you're remembering the earlier sources from, Stephen.

 

See also AO 325 of October 1916, which juggled some LR battalions between KRRC, RB & Middlesex Regt and moved the London Irish from RB to the Royal Irish Rifles, and AO 49 of Feb 1926, which int. al. re-states the links in my snippet above.

 

AO 250 also refers to AO 258 of 1916 in a footnote asterisked to the 25th London Regt, the Machine Gun Corps, the Army Cyclist Corps and the Royal Defence Corps ... but with no detail on why the link!  I have not seen this AO yet.  If anyone has a copy or knows what it says, I'd be very grateful if they shared that with us!

 

Bizarrely, the London Scottish's antecedent unit, the 7th (London Scottish) Middlesex RVC, were a VB of The Rifle Brigade from 1881 right through to, I think, 1908.  Despite this, it was to the Gordon Highlanders that the unit supplied men in the Boer War.

 

Mark

 

 

Edited 3 June , 2017 by MBrockway
Extra detail added

[Ian Riley]

Mark,

 

Thank you so much for including the Liverpool Scottish reference. It has eluded us (I think). We have seen references to the Liverpool Scottish as being 'part of the Corps of the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders' before the official transfer in 1937 and the regimental history gives a similar date as marking a closer connection but no reference to an Army Order.

 

The Liverpool Scottish also provided a small detachment (about 22/23) to the Gordon Highlanders in South Africa as part of the 4th Volunteer Service Company and the medals were named to the Gordon Highlanders with Gordon numbers.. We even have photos of them on active service!

 

Ian

Edited 3 June , 2017 by Ian Riley

[Steven Broomfield]

According to Lindsay's history of the London Scottish, half a company was supplied to the Gordons in 1900, joining a half-company supplied by various Gordon VBs for service in South Africa.