valeried Posted 18 December , 2004 Share Posted 18 December , 2004 I am looking for details of my grandfather with only his name. The Army Personnel group say I have no chance, so I am hoping someone here may be able to help me. My grandmother Jane Davis of Abergele, who lived in Peel Street and was a servant at The Hesketh Arms, died shortly after labour, and all that is known of my grandfather is that he was stationed at the camp. Can you help me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 18 December , 2004 Share Posted 18 December , 2004 I'd love to help. I live in Abergele and have an interest in Kinmel Camp. However.........Frank Taylor is a common name. You say that you know nothing more about your Grandfather. Do you mean absolutely nothing? Are there any ideas on birth place / date for example? Are you local to Abergele? If not I could have a wander around the cemeteries in town on your behalf to look for anything. Let me know. However, to be honest, this is not going to be an easy enquiry to resolve. All the best, Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky53 Posted 18 December , 2004 Share Posted 18 December , 2004 Have you tried finding Frank in the 1901 Census? I too have connections with that area of North Wales being born in Abergele Rd, Colwyn Bay. There may be more information on your mother or father's birth certificate about Frank. Jane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valeried Posted 19 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 19 December , 2004 Thank you so much for your offers of help. Unfortunately, the situation is as desperate as it appears- on my Mother's Birth Certificate it says 'Father Unknown'. I only have the name 'Frank Taylor' (who for all we know may well have been a Francis). Everything surrounding him is cagey- which makes us wonder if my grandmother was protecting his identity. I haven't checked the 1901 census- where is the best place to look? Below is an account of everything I know. The offer to wander the cemetaries is very kind, as we are not local to Abergele, and live in Milton Keynes in Buckinghamshire. Through prior research, I have been told there is no marked grave for grandmother- we believe she may have been buried in a pauper's grave as she died in a Work House. There are no records which list her plot. I know nothing about him apart from his name, Frank/Francis Taylor, and that he was based at Kinmel Camp (which in some corrrespondance appears as Risimel Park Camp?) in Abergele in 1919. In this year we he met my grandmother, Jane Davies (born 9th October 1895), who lived at 22 Peel Street and was a servant at the Hesketh Arms Hotel (does this still stand?). This is where they met. They were not married. It is recorded that she refused to give any information about my grandfather at the birth of my mother on 24th August 1920. On the occasions that I have tried to find further information about him, it has been stressed to me to leave the issue be and that discretion is preferred. Jane died in St. Asaph's Union Hospital in Abergele, 2nd July 1921. My mother, Maud was put into care when her mother's condition worsened. I know I do not have much information to go on, and do not even know if Frank/Francis Taylor lived in Abergele, or whether he was simply based there. This is what makes it very difficult, as I do not have a birth, marriage or death certificate mentioning him. It is only through probing Dr. Barnados (where my mother was an orphan) that I even have his name. Thank you again, Valerie Donovan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 19 December , 2004 Share Posted 19 December , 2004 I'll ask the Vicar whether the burial registers indicating burial plots is still in St. Michael's church and I will do a wander around. Peel Street is much changed. There is little housing there now. The Hesketh Arms closed about 5 years ago. The building still stands and has been converted into offices. Just one thing, to put the cat amongst the pigeons. Kinmel Camp in 1919 was 'home' to thousands of Canadians as they awaited transport to Canada. Could Frank have been one of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 19 December , 2004 Share Posted 19 December , 2004 Forgot to add.... Would you like some digital photo's of Peel St. / Hesketh Arms as they are now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 19 December , 2004 Share Posted 19 December , 2004 And.....(!) Canadian Archives list 13 Frank Taylor's having served in the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valeried Posted 20 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 20 December , 2004 Someone has given us a lead in that the Camp still exists, so we are writing to it for information on which regiments were based there in November 1919 around the time that my mother was conceived. We are also going to write to The North Wales Association for Friendless Girls, to whom mt grandmother turned when pregnant with the illegitimate child (my mother). We are unfortunately struggling to find any information on this association- we are not even sure it still exists. Andrew- We visited Abergele over ten years ago, and I could kick myself for not visiting the Hesketh Arms then, as they may have had something of interest. You don't happen to have seen the name of the brewery that owned it? I wonder where you found the interesting information that thirteen Frank Taylors served for Canada? I have been to the Canadian military website, but could not find the detail you did. Many thanks for your help, Valerie Donovan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky53 Posted 20 December , 2004 Share Posted 20 December , 2004 I found this article you may find interesting - and confirms the Canadian possibility http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/beyond/fact...t5_prog3b.shtml Jane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 20 December , 2004 Share Posted 20 December , 2004 Valerie, 1. A minor camp still exists under MoD control, but the camp of 1914-1919 is long gone and is mostly now either part of the A55 or and industrial park. I doubt you'll get the information from them that you want. However, apart from service personnel and a the odd individual, Kinmel Camp in 1919 was completely Canadian. In fact, I'd say that the possibility of Frank being a Canadian is very high. 2. I don't recall the brewery I'm afraid. I think it may have been a Free House. 3. See the excellent Candian archives here: http://www.collectionscanada.ca/archivianet/0201_e.html 4. The page I referred to is here: http://data4.collectionscanada.ca/netacgi/..._e.html&r=0&f=S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jemimajane Posted 21 December , 2004 Share Posted 21 December , 2004 Hi there - I have found the following from the 1901 census - which could be yours. 21 Peel Street, Abergele Daniel Davies Head Married 38 General Labourer Born Abergele Welsh/Englaish speaker Emma Davies Wife age 36 Born St Georges (Near Abergele) Grace Davies daughter age 13 Born Abergele Hannah Davies daughter age 10 Born Abergele William Davies son age 9 Born Abergele Jane Davies daughter age 6 Born Abergele Ellen Davies daughter age 3 Born Abergele All are said to be welsh/English speaker - except Ellen (Welsh) Ref: RG13/5238 Piece 5238 Folio 6 Page 4 Have also found an 1891 entry for the family - if you haven't already got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valeried Posted 21 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 21 December , 2004 Thank you so much! This is amazing information- and no, we do not have an 1891 entry either. Now that we know all their ages, we can approximate their years of birth, which will be a very useful tool indeed when using search engines as you probably know! This also tells us also that Maggie Davies, another daughter, was married by this time. She may even have left the country by this time bound for Patagonia where there is a Welsh colony- we are trying to find a marriage certificate for her so as to tell us her married name. If, with married name, she does not appear on the 1901 census, we can assume she had indeed left the country. We would also appreciate anyone with information regarding the Welsh leaving for Patagonia making contact. Thank you so much again, Val Donovan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jemimajane Posted 21 December , 2004 Share Posted 21 December , 2004 1891 Census - 22 Peel Street, Abergele Daniel Davies Head Married 28 Farm Labourer Abergele Emma Davies wife 26 Magie Davies dau 5 scholar Abergele Grace Davies dau 3 Abergele Hannah Davies dau 2m Abergele and 1881 - Gover, St Georges, Abergele Daniel Davies is listed as an indoor farm labourer - age 19 - single - servant Farmer is William Hughes (www.familysearch.org - the Mormon Family history website) Re: Abergele/Family History etc - contact the Clwyd Family History Society www.clwydfhs.org.uk. They may be able to help re the workhouse - and the St Asaph Union Hospital. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky53 Posted 21 December , 2004 Share Posted 21 December , 2004 There are some names of South American emigrants in this data base http://www.bisa.btinternet.co.uk/enquiries.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 21 December , 2004 Share Posted 21 December , 2004 Val If you do a search for the Anglican Baptisms in the Welsh Colony, Chabut Valley 1883-1903 you will find records of children who were baptised by the Rev. Hugh Davies in Patagonia. There is a family listed with the folowing details which could be worth researching further. Date of Baptism: 9/04/1893 Name of candidate: John Robert Jones Father William Jones Mother Margaret Jones Address: Trelew, Lower Valley Father's occupation: Labourerer Former address: 11, Pool St. Abergele, North Wales I don't know if there is a Pool St. (Andrew do you know of one ?) in Abergele but it may be a mis-spelling of Peel St. There was also Catherine Jones baptised on the same day with same parental details. Let me know if you need the web address. Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 22 December , 2004 Share Posted 22 December , 2004 Myrtle - not aware of a Pool St., so probably a spulling errer(!). Some really good digging going on here guys - very impressive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valeried Posted 22 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 22 December , 2004 hello Myrtle- thank you for the find, unfortunately we don't think this could have been Maggie because going by our earliest census, when these baptisms took place she'd have only been 7! However, we went searching for Maggie as she was not living in peel St with the rest of the Davies in 1901. We think we've found her working as a servant in Abergele at 'Market Vaults'- her master was a Mary Owen, aged 64, who was single and the 'Vaults Keeper'. Does anyone have any idea what the Vaults are, and if they still exist? They may have some record of her. We have also requested copies of all my grandmother's siblings birth certificates. With everyone's help we are really starting to piece the family together!! But we think we're only just scratching the surface, and our search for Maggie after 1901 continues. We know she went to Patagonia but why? And who with? We have nothing more on Frank, but hopefully our appeal to the Canadians will turn something up! Many, many thanks, Val Donovan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Nulty Posted 22 December , 2004 Share Posted 22 December , 2004 I have an 1880 map of Abergele. Can't see a Peel Street anywhere, but Peel Gardens are clearly identified just to the north of the town. Anybody who wants a copy, PM me your address and I'll be happy to email it to you (it's too large to post and reducing it loses too much detail). Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Nulty Posted 22 December , 2004 Share Posted 22 December , 2004 Valerie Market Vaults may well have been a pub. It's a common enough name. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 22 December , 2004 Share Posted 22 December , 2004 Steve - a copy of the map would be much appreciated. Peel Street is just off Water Street and about 200 yards east of the Parish Church. Valerie - I've spoken to the Vicar who allowed me to root through the registers. Armed with jemimajanes info...... Baptism records in the church only go back to 1889 so nothing on Grace. Hannah - baptised at St. Michael's March 25 1891. Of Peel Street. Father listed as a labourer. William (Jonas? Jones ? middle name indecipherable - actually looked more like Jones) - baptised 22 June 1892. Other details as above. Jane and Ellen do not appear in the baptism registers so the family were probably in St. Asaph by this stage. Daniel Davies, of Cartrefle, St. Asaph, buried in St. Michael's cemetery on May 16 1929, aged 68. I'll try to find this and get you a photo. Cartrefle pops up quite a lot in the burial registers. Jane's burial was on July 9th 1921, aged 25. She too was of Cartrefle. The plot number is not recorded, but armed with the names of those who died at the same time I should be able to work out where she is. I'll do a photo of that too and I attach a scan - not very good detail I'm afraid - of the burial register entry. The impossible to read bit is the name of the officiating Clergy, a certain Somebody Owen, Assistant Curate. I went from 1892 to 1960 in the burial and baptism registers and no other mentions appear. Looking through, Peel Street had loads of Davies's. They appear at numbers 15, 17, 21, 22, 33, 34 and 40! I also had a good look for the elusive Frank Taylor. Needless to say he's not there! One thing however: the name Taylor seems altogether alien to Abergele in the period 1892-1960, so he doesn't appear to have been an Abergele man. Hope this is useful. Watch this space for any photo's - though they may have to wait until after Christmas now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 22 December , 2004 Share Posted 22 December , 2004 Market Vaults - I think it's the name for what is now called 'The Harp' pub. I'll check that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 22 December , 2004 Share Posted 22 December , 2004 hello Myrtle- thank you for the find, unfortunately we don't think this could have been Maggie because going by our earliest census, when these baptisms took place she'd have only been 7! No I agree, not Maggie but possibly an Aunt especially with the Abergele, Peel Street connection. Having a relative in Patagonia may have encouraged Maggie to go there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valeried Posted 22 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 22 December , 2004 Andrew- how can I thank you enough? Even after speaking to a local historian twenty years ago we never knew where Daniel was buried, and we probed most desperately to find Jane, and never did. At least we know where she has been lain to rest now- if only my mother could have known. Where you say Jane and Daniel were of ‘Cartrefle, St. Asaph’, is that a town near Abergele? My mother’s records from Dr. Barnardos shows her mother Jane Davies to be a Wesleyan Methodist- do you know is this a very strict religion? Is St. Michael’s a Methodist church? If the pub is ‘The Harp’ that could be of interest- Jane was servant to the master (a woman!), and two nieces, aged 35 and 3. Yes, we agree that it is looking more and more likely that Frank was Canadian- with your help we will track him down! We have to say- you are a super-sleuth! We get so excited when we hear from you- that’s me and my daughter Rebecca who is at university in Nottingham. You realise no housework has been done since we started this haha! We hope you have a wonderful Christmas, and thank you so much again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valeried Posted 22 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 22 December , 2004 mJemimaJane- Thank you once again for imfo on re reading it does the word scolar mean that Maggie went to school and if so was it not the norm that all children went to school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jemimajane Posted 22 December , 2004 Share Posted 22 December , 2004 I'm not sure what the law was at this time re education (compulsory etc) - it either means she did go to school - or was of school age. I'll keep an eye out for any other entries which may be of help - the 1871 census is partly on-line at www.ancestry.com. Nadolig Llawen to you - Happy Christmas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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