JamieAnn Posted 9 July , 2017 Share Posted 9 July , 2017 This is a photo of Bill Munro, my dad's maternal grandfather. We believe this photo is from WWI. We believe he was from Scotland, and know that by 1916 he lived in Toronto, Ontario, Canada (unknown immigration ye ar). I'd really appreciate anything you could tell me about his uniform or any other clues you notice in the photo. Thank you!!! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 9 July , 2017 Share Posted 9 July , 2017 (edited) Welcome to the forum! The presence of the collar badges strongly suggests a CANADIAN SCOTTISH battalion I think. Might it be possible to get a closer look at the collar badges or the sporran badge? - they look reasonably clear. Two white tassels on a dark sporran should also narrow it down but the sporran badge does not look to me like the 43rd Bn Queens Own Cameron Highlanders of Canada. The badge on the Glengarry looks very circular..... Gordon92 will be your man for this when he sees it I think, Chris Edited 9 July , 2017 by 4thGordons typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Abbott Posted 9 July , 2017 Share Posted 9 July , 2017 (edited) The cap badge, the sporran pattern, diced glengarry etc. are a good match for the 134th (48th Highlanders) Bn. CEF. Presumably the kilt is in Davidson tartan. Edited 9 July , 2017 by Ron Abbott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieAnn Posted 9 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 9 July , 2017 Thank you both for the info!!! I will ask my Uncle Bill if he has the original to see if we can make out any more details in the photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 9 July , 2017 Share Posted 9 July , 2017 (edited) JamieAnn, The subject is wearing the uniform of of one of the Canadian Expeditionary Force (CEF) battalions derived from the pre-war militia 48th Regiment (Highlanders) of Toronto, either the 15th Battn, 92nd Bttn, or 134th Battn (as previously mentioned). The photo was definitely taken during WW1 since he wears a British 5 button service dress jacket. The sporran is probably a pre-war 48th Highlanders pattern sporran. It is highly likely that Bill Munro's service file is online at Library and Archives Canada, and access is free. I entered William Munro into the search boxes and received 54 hits as would be expected for this common name. I can only suggest that you begin to plow through this list, and with a little perseverance I think you will successfully find him. Let us know what you discover. Mike Edited 9 July , 2017 by gordon92 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieAnn Posted 10 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 10 July , 2017 Thank you!!! There is very little known about him because he was a boarder at my great grandparents' house. This record seems like a possible match http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/personnel-records/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=207152 but I don't know another way to verify for sure unless I can maybe find an address match between his service record and some of my family's census records. Or maybe if I can find an obituary with a photo to match to my photo. Do you have any other ideas of how I can confirm if I've found the correct record? More info: Bill Munro was boarding with my grandma's parents: John Charles Wilson and Viola May (Walter) Wilson in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. I don't know exactly when or for how long he was there, but my grandma was born March 30, 1916. I don't know if she ever knew him. The person in that record enlisted in January 1916, and died in April 1917. He was in the 134th/48th and then 15th, which matches the uniform in my photo. His prior job matches what we believe Bill Munro's job was (teamster). And he enlisted in Toronto, with parents from Scotland, which matches the known locations of Bill Munro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolt968 Posted 10 July , 2017 Share Posted 10 July , 2017 Have you looked at the Canadian 1911 Census. You might find him and/or your great grand parents. RM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieAnn Posted 10 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 10 July , 2017 On 10/07/2017 at 19:50, rolt968 said: Have you looked at the Canadian 1911 Census. You might find him and/or your great grand parents. RM Yes, I've tried to find their household in several census years with no luck. Edit: I just tried again & found the Wilsons (Lines 8-10) but Bill Munro isn't listed. I had been using familysearch.org with no luck, but when I searched directly on the Canadian government website I found it immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Abbott Posted 10 July , 2017 Share Posted 10 July , 2017 (edited) Presumably he's the man of the same name (born about 1888) n the 1891 Scotland census with parents named as Alexander and Agnes and with siblings called Joseph, Agnes and Mary Anne. However the place of birth (Drumlithie, Kincardineshire) is not the same as that recorded in the CEF enlistment records (Dunrobin, Sutherland). The CWGC certainly records the deceased soldier as aforementioned by JamieAnn as being the son of an Alexander and Agnes Munro. Edited 10 July , 2017 by Ron Abbott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieAnn Posted 10 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 10 July , 2017 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Ron Abbott said: Presumably he's the man of the same name (born about 1888) n the 1891 Scotland census with parents named as Alexander and Agnes and with siblings called Joseph, Agnes and Mary Anne. However the place of birth (Drumlithie, Kincardineshire) is not the same as that recorded in the CEF enlistment records (Dunrobin, Sutherland). The CWGC certainly records the deceased soldier as aforementioned by JamieAnn as being the son of an Alexander and Agnes Munro. Thank you :-) I will definitely save that info. I'm just not sure if that's the correct Bill/William Munro because we know so little about him. I would love to find some kind of definitive link between that William Munro (in the CEF soldier records) and Viola Wilson. Edited 10 July , 2017 by JamieAnn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolt968 Posted 10 July , 2017 Share Posted 10 July , 2017 It doesn't get us anywhere towards whether he is the right William Munro, I think that the son of Alexander and Agnes is commemorated on the war memorial at Arbuthnott, Kincardineshire. RM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 10 July , 2017 Share Posted 10 July , 2017 2 hours ago, rolt968 said: It doesn't get us anywhere towards whether he is the right William Munro, I think that the son of Alexander and Agnes is commemorated on the war memorial at Arbuthnott, Kincardineshire. RM One of the addresses listed in his service file is for Mrs. Agnes Munro, Greenden, Arbuthnott. So, it is fairly clear that the William Munro in the service file and the one on the memorial are the same. JamieAnn.....I saw 2 Toronto addresses in the service file: 248 Simcoe St. and what I think is 9 Otter Ave. I cannot read the script on the census record you found. Do either of these addresses match that of the Wilsons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Abbott Posted 11 July , 2017 Share Posted 11 July , 2017 (edited) If you enlarge the photo and focus on the sporran cantle, the badge on it, appears to be that of the 134th as it has the scroll at the top of it. So unless the 15th or 92nd also had that, then I would suggest that it is 134th. Furthermore, I have gone through the other men called William Munro in the CEF records and the only one I can find for the 134th is the man mentioned above by Jamie Ann. However, Scotland's People has no record of a man of that name being born at/near Dunrobin in 1887, so either he wasn't born there, his parents didn't register the birth or there is some other reason, e.g. illegitimate, born with different name etc. However, there was a William Munro born in Glenbervie on 18th Sep 1887 to Alexander and Agnes Munro. It is recorded that the parents were married on 6th March 1886 and that Munro was not only the married name but also the maiden name of Agnes. Glenbervie is just 4 or 5 miles from Arbuthnott. Edited 11 July , 2017 by Ron Abbott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieAnn Posted 11 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 11 July , 2017 (edited) 14 hours ago, gordon92 said: One of the addresses listed in his service file is for Mrs. Agnes Munro, Greenden, Arbuthnott. So, it is fairly clear that the William Munro in the service file and the one on the memorial are the same. JamieAnn.....I saw 2 Toronto addresses in the service file: 248 Simcoe St. and what I think is 9 Otter Ave. I cannot read the script on the census record you found. Do either of these addresses match that of the Wilsons? The only street I know of that the Wilsons may have lived on was Young St. I have been trying to go through the Toronto City Directories today to look for the 2 addresses in William Munro's file- still working on it. I wasn't able to find an address on the census record. Edit: Also the Wilsons may have lived at 383 1/2 Queue St W in 1919, and later 91 Vanalle (unsure of spelling). Edited 11 July , 2017 by JamieAnn New Info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieAnn Posted 11 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 11 July , 2017 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Ron Abbott said: If you enlarge the photo and focus on the sporran cantle, the badge on it, appears to be that of the 134th as it has the scroll at the top of it. So unless the 15th or 92nd also had that, then I would suggest that it is 134th. Furthermore, I have gone through the other men called William Munro in the CEF records and the only one I can find for the 134th is the man mentioned above by Jamie Ann. However, Scotland's People has no record of a man of that name being born at/near Dunrobin in 1887, so either he wasn't born there, his parents didn't register the birth or there is some other reason, e.g. illegitimate, born with different name etc. However, there was a William Munro born in Glenbervie on 18th Sep 1887 to Alexander and Agnes Munro. It is recorded that the parents were married on 6th March 1886 and that Munro was not only the married name but also the maiden name of Agnes. Glenbervie is just 4 or 5 miles from Arbuthnott. Thank you for taking the time to look through all of the records!!! :-) After that William Munro was in th 134th/48th he moved to the 15th where he was killed. I've been reading about the 15th and it sounds like a lot of people were transferred to the 15th? So even though soldiers can be transferred, do you think it would be safe to assume that a different William Munro wouldn't have been transferred from a different unit to the 134th since they were transferring people out of the 134th? Edited 11 July , 2017 by JamieAnn Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieAnn Posted 11 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 11 July , 2017 10 hours ago, rolt968 said: It doesn't get us anywhere towards whether he is the right William Munro, I think that the son of Alexander and Agnes is commemorated on the war memorial at Arbuthnott, Kincardineshire. RM Thank you!!! I didn't know there was a war memorial there- I'll definitely check it out! So far I had only seen a picure of the Vimy memorial in France. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieAnn Posted 11 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 11 July , 2017 https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=56681697&PIpi=128676179 http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/memorials/canadian-virtual-war-memorial/detail/1572235?William Munro The obituary picture is difficult to make out, but do you think it looks like the same person? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Abbott Posted 11 July , 2017 Share Posted 11 July , 2017 (edited) 26 minutes ago, JamieAnn said: https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=56681697&PIpi=128676179 http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/memorials/canadian-virtual-war-memorial/detail/1572235?William Munro The obituary picture is difficult to make out, but do you think it looks like the same person? Yes !! That website has his date of birth recorded as 20th Sept 1887. His official enlistment papers have DOB recorded as 28th Sept 1887 and the man that was born in Glenbervie was born on 18th Sept 1887. I think the man born in Glenbervie was likely him. If not then the coincidences are building up! Edited 11 July , 2017 by Ron Abbott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gareth morris Posted 11 July , 2017 Share Posted 11 July , 2017 Hi, going back to the Canadian census image, it would appear to me that it is only listing dwelling/ house numbers. If you can pull up the previous images, you should be able to work your way back the the start of the street and hopefully a street name Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 11 July , 2017 Share Posted 11 July , 2017 (edited) 17 hours ago, JamieAnn said: Thank you for taking the time to look through all of the records!!! :-) After that William Munro was in th 134th/48th he moved to the 15th where he was killed. I've been reading about the 15th and it sounds like a lot of people were transferred to the 15th? So even though soldiers can be transferred, do you think it would be safe to assume that a different William Munro wouldn't have been transferred from a different unit to the 134th since they were transferring people out of the 134th? JamieAnn.......The 15th Battalion was the only battalion of the three battalions (15th, 92nd, 134th) formed from the pre-war militia regiment 48th Highlanders that actually served with the Canadian Corps in France. Thus, the 15th received many replacements in France to keep it up to strength because of casualties and illnesses. So, your observation that a lot of people were transferred to the 15th is entirely on target. The 134th and 92nd never left England. Indeed, the 134th (and 92nd) provided drafts to the battalions in France including the 15th Battn. Your William Munro was among them. I think you have a safe assumption that the 134th probably did not receive a lot of transfers in once it was abroad. Eventually in March 1918 the 134th was absorbed by the 12th Reserve Battalion ending its individual existence. I also agree that the William Munro in the newspaper clip you found is the same man as in your original photograph. Edited 11 July , 2017 by gordon92 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 11 July , 2017 Share Posted 11 July , 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, gareth morris said: Hi, going back to the Canadian census image, it would appear to me that it is only listing dwelling/ house numbers. If you can pull up the previous images, you should be able to work your way back the the start of the street and hopefully a street name Gareth Good idea, but it does not seem to be possible to scroll to previous pages. Alternately, I tried checking to see if 248 Simcoe St. was in the same census district as the Viola Wilson entry. Viola is in District 127, sub-district 48 see https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/census/1911/Pages/item.aspx?itemid=6311973 Simcoe St. is also in District 127 but the closest sub-district is 44 see http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/census/1911/Documents/1911-Census-Street-Index-Toronto-EN.pdf So, 248 Simcoe may be near Viola's address but does not appear to be the same residence. Edit: Took another look at Viola's census page. There is an address on there that appears to be 261 Adelaide. Based on today's Google Maps, it is a 10 minute walk between these two addresses. Edited 11 July , 2017 by gordon92 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Abbott Posted 12 July , 2017 Share Posted 12 July , 2017 (edited) If he was the man born at Glenbervie on 18th Sep 1887, then he appears in the 1891 Scotland census as living at West March of Gardyne, Kirkden in Angus with his father Alexander and mother Agnes. Also residing there were his siblings Joseph, Agnes and Mary Ann. The 1901 Scotland census has the family residing at 45 West March of Gardyn and William Munro is still living with the family in Scotland at that time. Father Alexander and mother Agnes are still alive and also residing at the premises are siblings Agnes, Mary Ann, Alexander (jr), Donald, James and George. So if him, he presumably left for Canada on or after 1901. Edited 12 July , 2017 by Ron Abbott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 12 July , 2017 Share Posted 12 July , 2017 19 hours ago, Ron Abbott said: If he was the man born at Glenbervie on 18th Sep 1887, then he appears in the 1891 Scotland census as living at West March of Gardyne, Kirkden in Angus with his father Alexander and mother Agnes. Also residing there were his siblings Joseph, Agnes and Mary Ann. The 1901 Scotland census has the family residing at 45 West March of Gardyn and William Munro is still living with the family in Scotland at that time. Father Alexander and mother Agnes are still alive and also residing at the premises are siblings Agnes, Mary Ann, Alexander (jr), Donald, James and George. So if him, he presumably left for Canada on or after 1901. I think I have located William Munro's record in the 1911 census: https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/census/1911/Pages/item.aspx?itemid=6332575 It shows 1907 as his year of immigration. The one discrepancy is that his birth year is recorded as 1885 instead of the 1887 recorded in his service file. However, his trade is indicated as a Teamster, the same as in his service file. Further, his 1911 address of 205 Richmond is only a few blocks from his 1916 address and the address of the Wilsons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolt968 Posted 12 July , 2017 Share Posted 12 July , 2017 48 minutes ago, gordon92 said: I think I have located William Munro's record in the 1911 census: https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/census/1911/Pages/item.aspx?itemid=6332575 It shows 1907 as his year of immigration. The one discrepancy is that his birth year is recorded as 1885 instead of the 1887 recorded in his service file. However, his trade is indicated as a Teamster, the same as in his service file. Further, his 1911 address of 205 Richmond is only a few blocks from his 1916 address and the address of the Wilsons. I looked at that one but was not sure because of the age. Well done matching where the address was and the occupation. RM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 12 July , 2017 Share Posted 12 July , 2017 26 minutes ago, rolt968 said: I looked at that one but was not sure because of the age. Well done matching where the address was and the occupation. RM Hopefully, the info will be useful to the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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