36th Ulster Division

[SOMMESOLDIER]

Hi There,

I have a passing interest in the 36th Ulster Division. As everyone is aware it has very strong links to one of the traditions in Ulster. I have wondered for some time as to which battalions were totally Sir Edward Carson's pre war UVF (YCV), were any mixed with UVF and the wider Protestant Community. Also were there many Catholics in the 36th Ulster Division ? Any help would be very much appreciated.

Cheers

Tim.

[Desmond7]

On formation, the Ulster Division was largely - but by no means exclusively - a 'UVF' Division.

However, not all were members of the Ulster Volunteers. In all honesty, I doubt if there were more than a handful of Catholics in the Division pre-1st July 1916.

Interestingly, most UVF men awaited Carson's 'word' to join up which came after his famous meeting with Kitchener during which KofK demanded: "I want the Ulster Volunteers."

Kitchener thought he would get a brigade .. and ended up with a Division.

Cyril Falls in his history of the Division, makes it quite clear that it was to all intents and purposes, the UVF in khaki. Even those recruits who were not UVF would have been drawn from the protestant/'Empire Friendly' community.

It should be also be noted that quite a few 'hot heads' did not wait for Carson's green light and enlisted in Scottish Regts. (see studies by Jock Bruce amongst others for evidence) while numerous others seem to have opted for the 6th Btn Royal Irish Rifles which ended up in the 10th (Irish) Division, serving in the Dardanelles, Salonika etc.

For a short time I will paste up my 'local casualties' for 1st July and from the obits. you can judge the scale of UVF involvement etc.

Post 1st July, the nature of the Division began to change. Like nearly all the New Army formations, the 36th was initally able to draw on replacements from depots, men returned from wounds etc. Tom Johnstone says that the Ulster Division's 'UVF' character had begun to fade by the end of 3rd Ypres and was virtually gone by the end of Cambrai.

KIA returns show an increasing number of replacements coming from all parts of the UK. Interestingly, many of them come from London and the West Country. Conscription was never applied in Ireland for political reasons and - to be honest - few except those in the 'establishment' were eager for such a move, even amongst the protestant community.

Re YCVs - grey area. The Young Citizen's Volunteers were composed of the 'bright young men' of the generation. They were not initally linked to the UVF in any way and saw themselves as a semi-military gentlemens' club devoted to health, fitness and good citizenship. It was only the Home Rule Crisis which brought the YCVs to the UVF. They were NOT as some would like to portray them, the 'Junior Wing' of the UVF.

[SOMMESOLDIER]

Re YCVs - grey area. The Young Citizen's Volunteers were composed of the 'bright young men' of the generation. They were not initally linked to the UVF in any way and saw themselves as a semi-military gentlemens' club devoted to health, fitness and good citizenship. It was only the Home Rule Crisis which brought the YCVs to the UVF. They were NOT as some would like to portray them, the 'Junior Wing' of the UVF.

Hi Des,

That is all very interesting to me, you have put it all in a way that I can understand. I have read a number of things on the division, but the makeup has always slightly confused me because of the difference you explained about between pre and post 1st July 1916.

Also I have a friend who has clouded the issue, not through malice but through the fact that he looks at the Ulster Division from a modern political point of view and not through any real interest in the War.

I found the quote about the YCV extremely interesting as I had no idea, that they were really seperate.

Many Thanks.

Cheers

Tim.

[Desmond7]

You're very welcome. It cannot be stressed enough how 'respectable' and broad-based the original UVF actually was. The gentry, the middle class and the ordinary bloke all were members.

They were representative of the people then .. not a tiny minority. The present day UVF may claim to be descended .. talk to any Ulsterman and the truth will out.

Des

[SOMMESOLDIER]

You're very welcome. It cannot be stressed enough how 'respectable' and broad-based the original UVF actually was. The gentry, the middle class and the ordinary bloke all were members.

They were representative of the people then .. not a tiny minority. The present day UVF may claim to be descended .. talk to any Ulsterman and the truth will out.

Des

Hi Des,

I never doubted that Des. I know the modern UVF have nothing to do with the old UVF( Only in name ). Thanks again.

Cheers

Tim.

[rob elliott]

Just a couple of points regarding Desmonds reply.

The meeting at which kitchener requested the Ulster Volunteers was with Tom Hickman,MP for Wolverhampton and Head of the Imperial League For the Defence of Ulster and later Commanded the 109th Brigade, not Carson.

Hickman refered Kitchener to Carson and Craig at which meeting Kitchener was offered the UVF with conditions:

They served as a unit,'Ulster' was to be in its title and later the 'Red Hand' was incorporated in its badges.

Kitchener did not like the politicising of the Division but gave in as he required the men.

A lot of UVF officers and NCO's were on Reserve at the start of the war and were called up to thier original units,therefore being lost to the Division.Although some did transfer back. Col F.P.Crozier being the most well known.

I suggest reading Phillip Orr's 'Road to the Somme' to get a good idea of the early stages of the Ulster Division.

The use of the name UVF in its modern context doesn't stem from the pre-war formation but the post war version,althoughn they use the images of 1914.

Through the war the UVF remained active although in more of a support role for the Division.

In 1920 when the Political troubles started in Belfast and Londonderry the UVF was reformed,together with the Ulster Ex-Servicemens Association and Fred Crawfords 'Imperial Tigers' organisation. These organisations carried out political assasinations in both Belfast and Londonderry in 1920-21. The main difference being there was no officer class controlling them,except in Crawford's case.

The reformed UVF in County Tyrone were still led by their old officers,Ambrose Ricardo,being one and Lord Brookeborough in Fermanagh,which led to the formation of the Ulster Special Constabulary in these districts first.

Unfortunately the YCV's got tarred with the political brush and their name is now known in association with the UVF.