Highest no. KIAs

[Desmond7]

Folks - I know which battalions suffered the highest casualties on 1/7/16.

But can anyone give me the greatest number of KIAs or DOWs in a btn. on that day?

Tried a search ...

Des

[Desmond7]

Anybody? Please ...

Des

[PhilB]

Desmond, I think Ernie Bell`s "Soldiers died on the First day of the Somme" (??) listed all who died, whether KIA or DOW. If you mean to include all those who DOW later as a result of wounds received 1/7/16, it sounds like an impossible task! Phil B

[Desmond7]

MY most accurate figure for 12th R.Irish Rifles on 1st July is 154 (counting those who died of wounds received on that day) .... just trying to find out a 'worst KIA rate' to set losses in context.

Cheers Phil

[Landsturm]

Martin Middlebrook`s The First Day of the Somme has an Appendix of battalions suffering more than 500 casualties (these include both officers and men):

10th West Yorks - 710 casualties

1st Newfoundland - 684 casualties

4th Tyneside Scottish - 629 casualties

1st Tyneside Irish - 620 casualties

8th Yorks and Lanc - 597 casualties

Co. Down Volunteers - 595 casualties

Donegal and Fermanagh Volunteers - 589 casualties

1/8th Royal Warwicks - 588 casualties

1st Hampshires - 585 casualties

Accrington Pals - 585 casualties

1st Tyneside Scottish - 584 casualties

1st Border - 575 casualties

1st London Rifle Brigade - 572 casualties

1st Royal Innishkilling Fusiliers - 568 casualties

2nd Royal Fusiliers - 561 casualties

1st London Scottish - 558 casualties

1st King`s Own Scottish Borderers - 552 casualties

2nd Middlesex - 540 casualties

8th King`s Own Yorkshire Light Infantry - 539 casualties

4th Tyneside Irish - 539 casualties

3rd Tyneside Scottish - 537 casualties

Armagh, Monaghan and Cavan Volunteers - 532 casualties

Leeds Pals - 528 casualties

The Cambridge Battalion - 527 casualties

Public Schools Battalion - 522 casualties

11th Border - 516 casualties

1st Bradford Pals - 516 casualties

1st Edinburgh City Battalion - 513 casualties

Sheffield City Battalion - 512 casualties

Glagow Boys` Brigade Battalion - 511 casualties

Queen`s Westminster Rifles - 503 casualties

1st East Lancs - 502 casualties

There are many sources for above figures: battalion war diaries; brigade and divisional records; battalion and regimental histories published after the war. Frequently there are conflicting casualty figures for the same battalion. Where this has happened, the lowest from those available have been used. The casualties quoted should, therefore, be regarded as the minimum losses suffered.

[Terry]

David Parsons' book "Pilgrimage" has the following for the Newfoundland Regiment:

The total number of casualties varies from one source to another. The best numbers available indicate that 790 officers and men went over the top on July 1. Of these, 272 were killed, died of wounds, or were missing and presumed dead. There were 11 officers and 427 men wounded. A total of 710 killed or wounded of the 790 present. This was the highest casualty list of any battalion that fought that day - equal to the casualty list of the 10th West Yorkshire Regiment at Fricourt.

The good feature of this book is that he lists those KIA and then also lists each DOW from 1 July and the day they actually died. ranging from 2 July to 8 August.

[steve fuller]

Hi Des

The 7th Beds Diary listed 91 KIA & DOW on 1st july, and another 240 wounded. What the official fig is I cant say - thats just counting the individually listed names in their diary mate.

[Paul Reed]

The big problem with this is that many soldiers were missing - and hundreds of these missing were eventually recorded as having died for official purposes on 2nd July 1916 - most units left the line that day, so it was, the WO figured, the last possible time they could have been alive. Thus in 'Soldiers Died' and indeed in CWGC records many are recorded has having died on this date when they can only have died on the 1st because the unit was wiped out that day (a classic example are the Accrington Pals; many 2nd July deaths in SWD).

This was one of the problems with the late Ernie Bell's excellent 'Soldiers Died on the First Day of the Somme'. He compiled it in the 70s from SWD and acknowledged in the introduction he was several thousand names short.

[markinbelfast]

an good example of this is the sdgw listing the 8th East Belfast Volunteers RIR,who were right in the middle of the action on the 1st July, as losing 3 men on the 1st and on the 2nd losing 119.

Took me a long while to work this out as I've lots of KIA medals for the 2nd and none for the 1st July to the 8th Rifles.

[Desmond7]

Thanks lads - I've been working out my KIAs and DOWs on the basis of 'having been killed or received their fatal wound' on July 1. Thus in some cases it will actually say that 'Rfn. Bill Bloggs died of wounds suffered on 1st July 1916' .. even though the poor guy may suffer from those wounds for a year or more.

In other cases it is obvious that men from the same unit who DOW on 10th July for example, must have received their wounds either on or shortly after the main attack of July 1.

The Newfoundland KIA figure helps me put things in perspective. I am still astonished at how far out Tom Johnstone (author of of 'Orange Green and Khaki) got his fatal figures SO wrong:-

See here:-Tom Johnstone notes:-

“36th Division’s casualties in the two days (July 1 and 2) amounted to 5,500 officers killed, wounded and missing. Some battalions had almost disappeared. The two battalions which were on the northern ‘bank’ of the Ancre, 9th Royal Irish Fusiliers and 12th Irish Rifles, suffered most. Their dead amounted to 244 and 256 respectively out of the (Divisional) total of 1944 who were killed or died of wounds that day.”