Help required translating WW1 Turkish letter

[Simon127]

Hi All,

 

A bit of a long shot I'll admit, but I am trying to translate a short letter that I have recently come by.  It was written for an illiterate Turkish soldier during the war and captured or souvenired by a British soldier who brought it home.  

 

Can anyone on here translate Ottoman Turkish script?  It appears similar to Arabic but the two are not mutually intelligible, Ottoman Turkish having its own distinctive style.  Its use was phased out by Ataturk in the late 1920s.    

 

I know there are some real pros on here so thought that it was worth a shot - some years ago a GWF member turned up my Great Grandfather's WW1 service records to my grateful astonishment.   

 

Please let me know if you think you might be able to help, and I'll post some photos.  Hopefully it might shine a light on a theatre of the war which is of interest to many of us.   

 

Best wishes to all,

 

Simon

 

PS: My apologies if this isn't quite the correct place for this thread. Seemed like a good bet.  

 

 

 

[johnmelling1979]

Hello

 

Have to tried using an free online translation site

 

I do have a couple Turkish friends so if you were to put the pictures on I could copy and send it to them and see if they can translate

 

Worth a try and I think it would be good for us all on GWF to see

 

 

Cheers

 

John 

 

 

 

[shippingsteel]

Hi Simon, yes I can help decipher some of the Osmanli script. It is a painstaking task translating documents but when you know how it works it can be done. The main thing to consider is how clear the script is, and if it is properly formed. Some of the handwritten scribble is virtually impossible to work out. If you post up some images I will have a go at it, in fact I recall I may have helped you in the past with some Ottoman artifacts.?

[Simon127]

Hello Gents,

 

Thanks for your replies.  I'm currently still awaiting its arrival but I'd be very grateful for any help or info you might be able to provide.  I will post the 'stock' photos which are fairly detailed, and will add more if needed when the letter turns up.    

 

S>S, you have indeed very kindly helped me in the past with identifying the markings on some of my Ottoman Turkish pieces.  This could be your biggest challenge yet!  I feel that this could reveal something interesting about the individual that sent this.  

 

Very much looking forward to any revelations you can make.    

 

Best wishes,

 

Simon

 

[shippingsteel]

On 15/11/2017 at 19:54, shippingsteel said:

The main thing to consider is how clear the script is, and if it is properly formed. Some of the handwritten scribble is virtually impossible to work out. 

 

3 hours ago, Simon127 said:

S>S, you have indeed very kindly helped me in the past with identifying the markings on some of my Ottoman Turkish pieces.  This could be your biggest challenge yet! 

 

OMG.!!  Sheesh, you are not wrong there ... this looks diabolical.!

I may be able to make out a few lines, but don't hold your breath. May be a project for over our hot summer months coming up.

Perhaps I can fit it in during the downtime between Ashes Test matches.! The last one of these I did was a Turk soldiers paybook.

The interesting stuff in that was also hand written 'scribble'. It is always very much a learning experience to try and work this out.

[Simon127]

When I checked this thread yesterday (hurriedly, standing on Dorchester high street), a GWF member had posted the gist of a possible translation on here.  The post seems to have since been deleted or disappeared into the ether.  

 

Did I imagine this?  If not, please re-post it!  I was very interested by it!

[familyhistoryman]

You are correct as I remember seeing it. It mention a Lebanon connection

Tony

[trajan]

Likewise! I wanted to show this one to some of our Osmanli chaps in the History Department - along with three others I have been saving up... Recently re-met one of my former students doing a Ph.D there and he might be tempted to help...

[shippingsteel]

Well I started having a bit of a look at this over the weekend, and as I mentioned earlier it is very painstaking work given the sloppy handwriting. I would just say that Arabic speakers/readers will NOT be able to translate this stuff straight off the bat.

 

While the script is Perso-Arabic and there are quite a few Arabic 'borrow words' and names in there, the language is still predominantly Ottoman Turkish, and you need to cross reference this with 100 year old Osmanli phraseology. Oh, and the handwriting is just one individuals interpretation of how the script should be formed ... oh yes, fun stuff indeed.

 

And I would just add that I am no expert either, however I have studied the use of the Ottoman script, and its application to WW1 war materiels in the past. You do pick up a few of the little intricacies as you go along with this kind of thing, but a lot of it remains guesswork and cross-referencing. 

 

So I began working on just the first and last lines in an effort to try and 'crack the code' of this handwriting. It appears that this letter is correspondence between 2 brothers who share the surname Bakir, as the phrase 'my brother' shows very clearly in the first line. I can't get all the words but I think the first and last lines read basically as shown below ...

 

[1st line]  ....  ....  my brother  Alawi  (Corporal)  Bakir                  [and Last line]   Aqil  Mahada  Saydar  Bakir

 

PS. Just checking the names and the letter could also be from a Sister to a Brother. The first names at the bottom also have feminine links. The sister may have married a Mr Saydar thereby providing the surname Saydar - Bakir. And perhaps the X is a sisterly kiss, who knows. 

Edited 20 November , 2017 by shippingsteel

[RFA Gunner]

I have an admission to make, I actually did purposely delete my post before, as I was beginning to think that the translation I was given was wrong. I didn't think you had seen it yet so I thought I had deleted it quickly enough. I would go with what ShippingSteel has translated. I am deleting it again as I am now sure it is not correct. Sorry about the confusion!

Edited 20 November , 2017 by RFA Gunner

[shippingsteel]

You should have left it up there, not deleted it. It may not have been correct but it did provide a few clues from an Arabic speakers perspective. As I said there are clearly Arabic 'borrow words' and names in there, but the rest would appear as gibberish to a modern day Arabic speaker. Don't be sorry.! Every little bit of input does help. 

[RFA Gunner]

Thanks SS, but I am sure that almost all of it was incorrect. The misreading of Saydar was particularly embarrassing. The person I got help from was indeed an Arabic speaker. They themselves were unsure if they had translated the words correctly. I think it is best to start from scratch without an incorrect translation to provide any false leads.

[Simon127]

Gents,

 

Firstly let me say how very grateful I am to all parties who've taken the time to contribute to this interesting thread.  All suggestions - accurate and inaccurate, revised and unrevised - are welcome.  As a teacher, I am conditioned to place value on the process and not just the result.  

 

Now, time for me to make an admission of my own: it seems I have rather neglected the context of the letter which may prove helpful to any efforts to translate it and consider it as a historical document.  The letter is pasted to a page of a family photo album and features a pencil inscription made, presumably, by the British individual who obtained the letter.  There is also a March (?) 1916 date which may link it to some of the engagements in the Mesopotamian campaign, or possibly Egypt. 

 

The cross motif that ShippingSteel has suggested could be a kiss added by a feminine hand does, in fact, seem to serve as an asterisk to what is mentioned in the note, specifically the fact that 'the Turk' had the letter written for him by someone else, but used his 'formal signature' to sign it.  What is referred to as a 'formal signature' would have been made using a simple brass stamp inscribed with the soldiers name in Osmanli.  Most Turkish soldiers were illiterate so many soldiers had such a stamp to mark official documents and correspondence.  I have two examples in my collection which were souvenired by British soldiers serving in the East and I have seen examples in the Australian War Memorial collections which would suggest that the use of same was common throughout Ottoman Turkish forces.  There is, however, no indication that these were not also used by the general population, which could reasonably be equally illiterate.  I trust that these rather tardy revelations might help to provide some more context for the letter.  

 

Best,

 

Simon  

 

 

[Simon127]

Some of my seals.  Arf Arf.  

[trajan]

19 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

... I would just say that Arabic speakers/readers will NOT be able to translate this stuff straight off the bat. ... While the script is Perso-Arabic and there are quite a few Arabic 'borrow words' and names in there, the language is still predominantly Ottoman Turkish, and you need to cross reference this with 100 year old Osmanli phraseology. ...

 

Just to add, really, to back up SS's comment. I have to work with Osmanli documents dating from the 15th century in connection with a research project of mine.  Yes, 15th century - so some changes between then and the GW! Luckily I have a colleague who does the transcribing from Osmanli script to recognisable words, but here is an example after transcription to show what parts are clearly "Turkic", not Arabic or Persian:

 

"qażıya-i qalᴄe-i Aq Kermān / Rum Eli beglerbegisi dögdügi yerden yalu-ṣıra devletlü pādişāh namāz qılduġı mevziᴄye degin ḥiṣārpeçe alçaq olduġı sebebden tamām başdan başa dīvārı yeñi qaldırub | bedenler kesildi ki ol yerde kāfir ḥiṣāra qoyulmuş idi"

 

Now, even with my poor Turkish, many words and phrases jump out and are recognisable - and some are highlighted above : e.g., qalᴄe-i = kale = castle; beglerbegisi = Beylerbey = Commander; yerden = yerdan = that place; namāz = namaz = prayer; başdan başa dīvārı yeñi = bashdan bashi duvar yeni - from the beginning a new wall; yerde kāfir ḥiṣāra = yerde Gavur hisar'a = where the gavur...

 

BUT, be aware that by the late 19th -early 20th century, there were many more Persian  words in Osmanli than earlier - and early Osmanli is much closer to Azerbaijan than modern Turkish! So, all credit to our mate down under for any progress he makes!

 

Trajan

 

PS: Just in case you wanted to know, it's a 1485 document about the rebuilding of part of a castle wall...!!!

[shippingsteel]

Simon, yes I was wondering what the note in the corner had to say. You certainly need all the help you can get with this stuff.!

I wasn't being too serious about the X being a kiss, but I noticed it there and thought oh what the hell.! I do think the letter is written by a lady.

 

Regarding the seal and the comments in the corner, I think you can disregard most of that. While the soldier may have been illiterate, the person writing this letter certainly was not, and could write ... well, in a fashion anyway.!! 

The seal that you see at the bottom of this letter is the Family name Saydar. Consider it as being written on the Family letterhead if you like. If you look carefully the seal is the same as the surname written directly above it. So that's an easy one and I guess it helps confirm what I'm saying.

[Simon127]

Apologies for the late response to the this.  The last few weeks of term are always hell.  

 

I had long believed that the brass seal was primarily a military 'thing' - I have often heard it said that few Ottoman Turkish soldiers were literate, and believed that these seals became something that each soldier would have had as part of their personal equipment.  I think Shipping Steel's comparison to a family letterhead is probably a more useful way to think of them.   

 

Assuming that this letter was taken from a Turk at some time during the war, I suppose it would make far more sense for it to have been a letter than the Turk received from someone back home.  Soldiers would probably keep letters on their person along with diaries and wallets and these things would be taken first for intelligence / purloining purposes.    

 

SS, any developments with the rest of the letter? 

 

Best wishes,

 

Simon   

[trajan]

1 hour ago, Simon127 said:

... I had long believed that the brass seal was primarily a military 'thing' - I have often heard it said that few Ottoman Turkish soldiers were literate, and believed that these seals became something that each soldier would have had as part of their personal equipment.  I think Shipping Steel's comparison to a family letterhead is probably a more useful way to think of them. ... SS, any developments with the rest of the letter? 

 

These seals were, as SS indicated, a useful way of certifying that a letter or whatever was from the person concerned  - as with any other kind of seal. I have examples of these that my students use for the archaeological 'drawing class' I teach - I buy them at the local antique market for a small sum and all are mass-produced, with casting marks on the ring, and the person's name engraved on them.

 

As I indicated before, Osmanli is essentially 'Old' Turkish, in the sense that "Beowulf" is written in 'Old' English. SS has made great strides in working on the script, and I look forward also to his transcript and translation. Otherwise I will have to look into it myself and Osmanli language and Osmanli script are really two very different things - and so when I retire! 

[shippingsteel]

10 hours ago, Simon127 said:

SS, any developments with the rest of the letter? 

 

To be honest I haven't looked at it any further. As with you there are always other commitments in life that tend to take priority.

I still have the folder out on my desk, so I intend to get back to it at some stage.! Work generally slows down with the monsoon. 

[Simon127]

That seems fair enough!  I sometimes think I would very much like to abandon the 9-5 and spend all my time indulging in my WW1 obsession but it's not to be.  Not yet, anyway. 

 

Please do let us know as and when you make any more progress with it.  

 

Happy Christmas to one and all.

 

Simon  

[Tim200]

Fascinating read, look forward to hearing more...

[Simon127]

Some six and a bit years after first posting this, I am pleased to say that I can finally give an update and a translation of the letter.  I found a wonderful gentleman, Dr Engin Ackay, a scholar of the Ottoman Turkish language, who has fully translated the letter.  It turns out that the British or Empire soldier who came across this was incorrect in their assertion that it was "written for him"; it is in fact written from his brother and very touching.  Les Carlyon's wonderful Gallipoli features letters taken from Turkish soldiers written in very much the same style.    

I have also since had it framed.