Ww1 sash

[Ross87]

Hi there, i have my great grandfather’s military sash from what i was told was the horse artillery. I would love to find out more about it and the unit he faught in if someone could help. Thanks a lot!

Ross

[derekb]

Hi Ross

It looks to me like a sash from the Loyal Orange Order or “Loyal Orange Lodge”. 

Men of the Ulster Division who were members of The L O L (Loyal Orange Lodge) are recorded as having worn their sashes as they went “over the top” and advanced on the 1st July 1916 at the start of the Battle of the Somme. 

The figure on the horse on the sash Is William of Orange who was King William III of England. 

If you have provenance I would suggest that it would be a very desirable item in certain areas of the UK particularly parts of Northern Ireland. 

The colours may have faded or changed over the years I think that they were mostly predominantly orange. 

If I can be of any further help let me know. 

Regards

Derekb. 

 

[corisande]

Can you give us his full name, and date and place of birth. With more information on him we may get further

[Ross87]

Hi folks, firstly thanks so much for the replies and the information so far! I’d love for you to help me find out more. His name was Thomas Parr Gamble, born in Dundee around 1900, possibly late 1800s. Hope that helps! I have death cert in attic and will try find it!

[Ross87]

Derekb is there any way i could find out what unitnhe fought in and if he was at the battle of the somme?

[david murdoch]

1 hour ago, Ross87 said:

Hi folks, firstly thanks so much for the replies and the information so far! I’d love for you to help me find out more. His name was Thomas Parr Gamble, born in Dundee around 1900, possibly late 1800s. Hope that helps! I have death cert in attic and will try find it!

Born 1894, died 1968 aged 74. So fighting age in WW1.

There appears 52 Thomas Gamble(s) had medal cards, but not seeing one for Thomas Parr Gamble, Thomas P. Gamble or T.P. Gamble. 

Do you have any photos of him or are his medals in the family - those will have his regiment and service number on them, which would identify him. There are several for Royal Field Artillery, and one for  Royal Horse Artillery and Royal Field Artillery

Edited 5 December , 2017 by david murdoch

[rolt968]

Thomas Parr Gamble born in St Clement, Dundee in 1894 (scotlandspeople index).

 

Is there any information inscribed on the back of the insignia? A Lodge number for example.

 

It is certainly not unknown for there to be Orangemen in Dundee; but did he have any connection to the Glasgow area or Northern Ireland?

(I can't immediately see him in the 1911 Scotland census unless someone has got his age wrong which is possible.)

RM

Edit: Died in Dundee in 1968 aged 74 (scotlandspeople index).

Edited 5 December , 2017 by rolt968

[derekb]

Hi Ross

I believe the place to start would be his Medal Index Card on a site such as Ancestry then take it from there. 

If he was born and lived in Dundee there is a Loyal Orange Lodge in Dundee who may be able to help with some information. 

You will find LOL’s in all sorts of places in the UK. some being surprisingly unlikely. 

The 36th Ulster Division well may have attracted “Orange Men” from other parts of the UK; I can’t be sure. 

But this may be jumping the gun a bit: the first thing is as you have said to establish his military unit. 

Regards

 

Derek

[Interested]

Out of interest;

In Richard Holmes' "Tommy" published in 2004 there is some information:

Following talks between Kitchener and Sir Edward Carson the Unionist Leader it was agreed to enlist the help of the UVF, beginning in September 1914.  Holmes describes the 36th (Ulster) Division achieving .....immortality by storm on 1st July 1917 ...there were orange sashes in evidence and the old bark of "no Surrender!" in the air.  the division scored the only significant success north of the Bapaume Road that day.....(page 154)

Unfortunately he doesn't give any cross-reference to where this information was derived.

Hope this helps,

Philip

[corisande]

The myth/legend of the Orange Sash at the Somme was well covered on the Forum  in this long thread - click for thread

 

I felt it was summed up well with this post

 

Like many Great War stories, this has understandably large amounts of hero-romantic appeal and has been recycled a few times over the decades. Just wait for 1st July 2016. The BBC will be all over this like a Dan Snow storm. To my knowledge there has been minimal robust analysis, so the story continues to trundle on, occasionally nudged by respected authors who, rather than provide evidence, simply repeat the story; their status thereby adding some credence to the story by way of association. "Author X says it, so it must be true". I note none of the references can actually quote a source or refer to a first hand account.

It is rather like the football at Christmas, lots of second and third hand accounts, particularly in the media, but nothing in the diaries or contemporary histories, and very little by way of primary material. The reader who wants to believe it focuses on the flimsy supporting evidence and discards counter-evidence - another classic case of 'confirmation bias'. It is quite possible (and in my view probable) that at least one man within a Division of 12,000 infantrymen was fired-up enough to wear his sash (the photos support the idea that they were at least taken to the front), I doubt that hundreds did so, otherwise I think we would have a lot more tangible evidence. It is the way of these things. One tiny anecdote gets picked up by the media and suddenly gets extrapolated across a much larger event, and distorted and compounded. If one man kicks a football over the top, it doesn't necessarily means the division played soccer in front of the Germans.

I would treat anything written by Orr with a great deal of caution. His work on the Irish at Gallipoli has more than a few errors. I note he provides no hard reference point.

This is rather like the Christmas Football, the Gallipoli female snipers or crucified Canadians or Germans chained to their machine-guns; highly charged emotional images that make good copy but are conveniently diifficult to prove or disprove. As with may Great War stories the 'believers' ask the 'non-believers' to prove something didn't happen rather than prove it happened. A curious feature that is common in the mythstory of the Great War. MG

 

I appreciate that we are trying to identify this Orange Sash, and am trying to avoid the conversation slipping into the myth/legend of the sash at the Somme. If we avoid speculating on whether sashes were worn in battle, we are more  likely to make progress on this particular sash

 

 

[corisande]

Have you given us all the photos of the sash. The first one of your set appears to be under glass, and there is a larger emblem lurking in the folds of the sash

 

Indeed are the first and last photos of the same sash?

 

I would expect to see the  LOL number on the sash. As in these examples

 

Edited 6 December , 2017 by corisande