Major Robert Gregory RFC - KIA, mistaken ID or the Flu?

[Karl Murphy]

Major Robert Gregory RFC was officially listed as Killed in Action over the Italian Front on the Italian front on 23 January 1918. It is believed he was shot down in error by an Italian pilot

 

- but now it is being claimed that he died of a Flu jab!

 

Major Robert Gregory, the only son of Yeats’s long-time patron, Lady Gregory of Coole Park, Gort, County Galway, died when his Royal Flying Corps aircraft crashed on the Italian front on 23 January 1918.

Royal Flying Corps records in the British National Archives state that he was "shot down in error by an Italian pilot", a claim that has been repeated by Yeats and by a number of Gregory biographers.

But an Irish aviation consultant and Gregory descendant has dismissed this claim and said that his own recent research shows that Major Gregory died instead when his plane crashed after a bad reaction to a Spanish Flu inoculation caused him to faint and lose control of his aircraft at a high altitude.

https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2018/0101/930446-robert-gregory/

 

I wonder if anyone knows which Squadron he served with and if there is a War Diary that would list the record of how he died?

 

Major Gregory was the subject of WB Yeats famous poem An Irish Airman forsees his Death 

 

Yeats wrote his four poems about Robert Gregory between 1918 and 1921, at Lady Gregory’s prompting. He describes him as "my dear friend’s dear son" and as "soldier, scholar, horseman" in In Memory of Major Robert Gregory.

 

Thanks if anyone can help.

 

 

 

 

[nieuport11]

He was with 66Sq in Italy and his Camel (B2475) crashed after going into a spin at 2000ft nr Monasterio during a test flight. The aircraft came down with engine full on.

No indication of enemy action and the flu story sounds most likely

[helpjpl]

Robert Gregory's Casualty Card does not state that he was "shot down in error by an Italian pilot".

 

It says that he was killed in a flying accident, as per #2, and that "investigations fail to discover cause of accident".

http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/pages/raf_vault.php?RAF-titel=Gregory&RAF-initials=R.&van=1

 

Irish Life, 22  February 1918:

http://ourheroes.southdublinlibraries.ie/node/17385

 

JP

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

2 hours ago, Karl P Murphy said:

recent research shows that Major Gregory died instead when his plane crashed after a bad reaction to a Spanish Flu inoculation caused him to faint and lose control of his aircraft at a high altitude.

 

Then that is particularly unfortunate.

Bearing in mind that the correct cause of influenza ( a virus) wasn't identified until 1933, and the first effective vaccine not introduced until 1945, then whatever he was injected with that day was a pointless sham.

[helpjpl]

I thought the US was the first country to develop a vaccine - but not until October 1918.

https://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/blog/spanish-influenza-pandemic-and-vaccines

 

JP

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

5 hours ago, helpjpl said:

I thought the US was the first country to develop a vaccine - but not until October 1918.

https://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/blog/spanish-influenza-pandemic-and-vaccines

 

JP

 

An interesting report, but appears to be one of the blind alleys that medicine drives itself into from time to time. Although the intention was to provide immunity against influenza, and the researchers believed they had produced a vaccine against what they thought was the causative organism, they were wrong on both counts. The methodology and structure of the trial was poor compared to modern day double blind placebo controlled crossover trials. Some solace has been gained by meta-analysis in recent years, but I doubt that that level of proof would pass muster with the FDA or the European Medicines Agency today.

[helpjpl]

2 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

An interesting report, but appears to be one of the blind alleys that medicine drives itself into from time to time. Although the intention was to provide immunity against influenza, and the researchers believed they had produced a vaccine against what they thought was the causative organism, they were wrong on both counts. The methodology and structure of the trial was poor compared to modern day double blind placebo controlled crossover trials. Some solace has been gained by meta-analysis in recent years, but I doubt that that level of proof would pass muster with the FDA or the European Medicines Agency today.

 

#5 - I thought the US was the first country to develop a vaccine - but not until October 1918

 

I was trying to show that if this was the first vaccine then Robert Gregory didn't get it. The vaccine was developed after his death.

 

Regards

JP

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, helpjpl said:

 

#5 - I thought the US was the first country to develop a vaccine - but not until October 1918

 

I was trying to show that if this was the first vaccine then Robert Gregory didn't get it. The vaccine was developed after his death.

 

Regards

JP

 

Apologies.

I can now read your words in the context in which you intended.

What you say is absolutely correct, as is MrSwan above.

[john-g]

I first came across this tale when I received a copy of a document, which was held by the RAF Museum at Hendon some years ago RAFM Cat no DC73/104/7.  The document was about the authors time with 66 Squadron, his name was  Frederick  Louis  Burns an early recruit to the RFC his s/n was 762.  He was a driver with the squadron from the start in 1916 through to the end of the war.  He wrote a draft memoire about the squadron, obviously from his point of view, but nevertheless he was a very good observer of what was going on and around the squadron.

On one of the pages, he goes on to say "some pilots saved themselves by keeping on course and gliding down, when this is possible, the natural inclination when the engine stopped, was to turn back to the airfield.  This usually proved fatal with the Camel. So we had a few Military Funerals. The Saddest one was that of Major Gregory, M.C. and Legion de Honour.  He went out one day to visit a patrol over the lines and never returned. I spoke to the driver who went to the crash. Observers saw the Major's Camel come down in a nose dive from a great height above the Asiago Plateau.  The machine was a complete write-off.  I heard that the C.O. had been inoculated not long before his last flight and that he should not have flown so soon afterwards. The theory was that he had fainted and lost control."  

 

Of course this is not a 1st hand account, but Burns noted many interesting (to me) going on in the squadron,  and although it cannot be proved, it cannot, as far as I am aware be discounted.

 

john-g

www.66squadron.co.uk

 

 

[SamCurt]

Picking up on the epidemic, the link above (www.historyofvaccines.org) appears to only reference articles upto 2010.

 

A more recent paper ('Genesis and pathogenesis of the 1918 pandemic H1N1 influenza A virus,' M. Worobey, et al., April 2014), suggested that the high mortality rate in 1918’s second wave of infections among adults aged 20 to 40, peaking among 25 to 29-year-olds, may have been due primarily because of their childhood exposure to a previous virus (H3N8), which was estimated to have circulated from around 1889 to 1900, and had a different protein.  'The actual peak in mortality among young adults occurred precisely in those born from 1889 to 1893.'

 

One of the people I am researching, Basil Stuart CHARLES, was born in 1890 and died on 7 December 1918 of Broncho Pneumonia, shortly after being admitted to the 14th General Hospital, Wimereux, aged 28.

[helpjpl]

Major Robert Gregory did not have a flu jab  (#1). The first influenza vaccine was developed after his death.

 

See #6  ….. it is most likely that Major Gregory suffered an adverse reaction to an anti-typhoid inoculation and perhaps ignored medical advice to avoid flying for a day or two.

 

JP

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

The other thing to consider is causality.

Just because someone had an inoculation (exact type not established) in the hours before death, does not mean that the inoculation was involved in the death in any way.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 minute ago, MrSwan said:

 

Agreed. I think JP and I are merely suggesting that the inoculation (if any) would most likely be that for anti-typhoid.

 

 

Yes, I understand.

Without going back over the whole thread, the fact that he was inoculated was recorded in a contemporary report. It may have over time, attracted a sense of importance which is totally undeserved, but nevertheless, purely by the fact that it is in the record, it has become by association established as a causative factor.

He had an inoculation and his plane crashed. That's all that is known.

[Guest]

   Sudden deaths of pilots when the machine was not under attack and in apparently good order were not that uncommon. I have local casualties that illustrate the problem- One  (Lt. Howard Brufton) - plane disintegrated after chasing off a German fighter over Salonika-Well the Board thought that it was  structural weakness from diving too fast when chasing the Hun. The squadron historian (contemporary) believed that German bullets may have weakened the plane anyway 

    Another, Captain Ashley Dudley Taylor went in to a spin on a bombing mission into Germany in 1918 and crashed the plane, killing him and his observer. The Board put it down to Summer thundery weather  which had caused him to faint. A fellow officer writing to his family (and published in a local paper)  thought the man had already been unwell the day before but had "soldiered on"

     In the absence of  instrument readings-and with plane wreckage either mangled or burnt (or both), then some explanation had to be sought for these appararent sudden deaths. 

     As it is, I have a delayed visit to Kew to look at some other files, so will get out his officer file which -should/may- have the best guess at an answer

 

Major Robert GREGORY. Royal Flying Corps.

War Office: Officers' Services, First World War, Long Number Papers (numerical). Officers Services (including Civilian Dependants and Military Staff Appointments): Long Service Papers. Major Robert GREGORY. Royal Flying Corps.

Held by:	The National Archives - War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies
Date:	1915 - 1934
Reference:	WO 339/42377
Subjects:	Armed Forces (General Administration) | Army | Conflict | Operations, battles and campaigns

 

 

My  understanding is that aviation medicine was a primitive and inexact science in 1918 and the mechanics of open-air cockpits and heat were not fully understood. I enclose a modern scree from Flight International on the problem:

Unique Pilot Risk Factors for Heat Stress

Obstacles to Heat Loss:  Flight Suit, Boots, G-suit, Survival Vest, Harness, Helmet, & Anti-Environment Suit or CBRNE Protective Gear when indicated

• Required Aircrew Flight Equpiment Layers
• Reduced Air Flow in Cockpit
• Intentional Dehydration to Avoid Urination (you know you’ve done it)
• Radiating heat from avionics and tactical equipment

Humans are ‘warm-blooded’.  Unlike reptiles and other ‘cold-blooded’ animals, this means we have the ability (and need to) regulate core temperature within a fairly narrow range, despite the temperature of our environment.  Average core body temperature is usually between 35-41 degrees Celsius (95-105.8 Fahrenheit).  Heat is gained internally as a by-product of energy production, which obviously increases during exercise. Heat is also gained externally when the ambient temperature around us is greater than the body’s temperature.  When overall heat gains exceed losses, core temperature increases.  In the opposite setting, core temperature decreases.

The human body has a number of strategies to regulate body temperature.  The main way in which the body cools itself is through sweating.  In order for sweat to actually translate into heat loss, it must evaporate from the skin’s surface.  Therefore, your ability to decrease  body temperature will be greatly influenced by the clothing you wear, the presence and speed of wind, and the relative humidity of your environment.  Other more minor ways the body loses heat are through shifting blood of to the skin, which allows loss through convection and radiation to the environment, and through behavioral mechanisms (finding shade, taking off clothing, or drinking water).

Your body will likely respond to a gain of heat in a number of predictable ways, which will ultimately decrease performance.  This is critical for the professional pilot to consider.  As mentioned above, sweating will increase and blood vessels near the skin will open up shifting blood from internal organs (and the cranium!) to the skin’s surface.  Although muscular strength does not seem to be affected by excessive heat, both muscular endurance and time to fatigue decreases.  One of the most important consequences of heat to a pilot is evidence that heat alone when controlled for fatigue and dehydration, which may confound a study) causes attention, viligance, memory, recall, and decision-making capacity to deteriorate.  This has been demonstrated repeatedly in controlled lab experiments₁, but an interesting study on Israeli helicopter pilots seems to confirm this also holds true far from the lab, in real-world combat₂.

The body’s responses to heat described above likely diminish one’s G-tolerance, though I am unaware of a medical study that specifically answers this question.  The act of profuse sweating will certainly lead to fluid loss and dehydration.  Dehydration has been linked to lower G-tolerance₃.  The dilation of blood vessels near the skin surface means less blood in the central blood vessels, and more specifically the vessels that allows you to remain conscious under 9-G’s.  Muscular endurance is a necessary to accomplish a strong Anti-G Straining Maneuver (AGSM) and if you are fatigued due to excessive heat on a day in which you trip-turn, your G-tolerance will be pitiful.  The RAF’s Aerospace Medicine textbook, Ernsting’s Aviation Medicine, states that the combination of heat, noise, confinement, and vibration diminish G-tolerance by 0.5 to 1.0 G’s.

There are several factors that predispose a person to heat illness or provoke performance deficits from heat.  One’s surface area and body mass will cause more blood to shift from the central vessels (negative affect on G-tolerance) and the greater amount of fat tissue acts as an insulating layer preventing efficient heat loss.  Sweat response varies somewhat from person-to-person.  Although it would seem that heavy sweaters should be able to cool the body more than light sweaters, there is a point where too much sweat saturates the skin, prevents further sweating, and does not easily evaporate.  Because sweat has less electrolytes than blood, heavy sweating can lead to electrolyte imbalances as well.  Obviously, hydration status is directly linked to sweat production and therefore has an effect on temperature regulation.

 

 

Edited 7 January , 2018 by Guest

[helpjpl]

Unique Pilot Risk Factors for Heat Stress

 

Heat stress in an open cockpit at 2,000ft in January?

 

Pages 8-10 may be of interest:

https://www.aerosociety.com/media/4847/a-brief-history-of-flying-clothing.pdf

 

JP

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, helpjpl said:

 

Heat stress in an open cockpit at 2,000ft in January?

 

Pages 8-10 may be of interest:

https://www.aerosociety.com/media/4847/a-brief-history-of-flying-clothing.pdf

 

JP

 

 

      Very much so.   Heavy-duty kit- the inability to perspire properly-plus engine heat (and attendant problems of fumes and oil). No joke-it was a real problem. I have local casualties-not just the 2 above- invalided out with health problems from open cockpits- one with TB (thought to have been brought on from lung problems and open cockpits), one with extended tonsilitis and stomach problems. The use of castor oil did not help-  a great dynamic for enclosed cockpits was the prevalence of these health problems from rapid airflow, polution(airborne and engine), etc. Mock all you wish-the problem was very real in the loss of pilots and aircraft.

[Karl Murphy]

Thank you all for your very informative replies

 

I suppose we will never know for sure but it looks to me like he conked out and never recovered consciousness

 

- quite possibly after having an adverse reaction to an injection of some sort for some condition

 

- but probably not the 'Spanish Flu'