Rifle home on leave?

[Andrew Upton]

31 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

Equally these soldiers, in this image from the IWM collection do not appear to be carrying their rifles as they arrive at Victoria for home leave

 

http://www.iwmprints.org.uk/image/744016/two-british-soldiers-arrive-at-victoria-station-london-at-the-start-of-a-period-of-home-leave-during-the-first-world-war

 

 

Spurs, puttees wound cavalry style, drivers greatcoats, mounted haversacks, cavalry mess tins carried on 1903 water bottles... I'm guessing they aren't normal infantry  If they were mounted artillery soldiers then rifles would normally have been kept with the limbers as I recall.

 

Edited 24 July , 2018 by Andrew Upton

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Moonraker said:

At the risk of taking this thread off-topic again, were all soldiers serving on the Continent issued with rifles? What about those whose duties would not normally involve fighting?

 

Moonraker

 

    That I do not know-but I feel sure "basic training" included small arms-save for limited emergencies-such as the lorry drivers who volunteered in 1914 and were in uniform and in France p.d.q.   Am I right in recalling one of the odd statistics of the war-perhaps from SMBE?--  That running a list of total army strength/ration strength against rifle stocks showed that very often the army did not have enough rifles to go round-hence the stuff such as the Japanese rifle scheme.  in 1914-15.  But as we nowadays have aircraft carriers without aircraft, then the predecessors of MOD Procurement were probably no better back then (with the exception of Sir John Cowans- whose description by Max Aitken is a lovely  character sketch-that he looked like a prosperous provincial corn merchant, with his pockets stuffed with notebooks)

[Derek Black]

Old newspapers have plenty articles on soldiers with their rifles, or even rifles as war trophies, being brought back on fulough (leave).

There's also plenty instances of soldiers rifles discharging accidentally, with the varied results of scaring, injuring or killing people.

 

There's an interesting artile in the  Daily Gazette for Middlesbrough, Friday 03 December 1915.

A Coldstream Guard on his way home on leave in late 1915, who had been out since 1914, was drunk on whisky when he boarded the train for Berwick-upon-Tweed. While messing about in a carriage with his rifle he accidentally shot through to the next compartment and killed a middle aged man.

The court case as reported found that this was happening too often, also that there was no requirement in wartime for soldiers to hand in their ammunition before going on home leave with their rifle.

As the man was drunk, and no intention was proved, he was free to go.
 

Derek.

Edited 24 July , 2018 by Derek Black

[593jones]

With regard to the Firearms Act 1920, I'm sure I read somewhere that the reason behind this was the government's fear of revolution sparked by the Russian revolution.  Perhaps they were seeing Bolsheviks in Britain storming Westminster!  Better to make sure they wouldn't have the weapons to do it.

[GRANVILLE]

Can't quote source now, but I have read accounts of instances of the throwing of hand grenades from bedroom windows by intoxicated soldiers on leave and (by the sound of it), caught up in some sort of domestic/neighbour dispute.   

 

David

[ss002d6252]

23 minutes ago, GRANVILLE said:

Can't quote source now, but I have read accounts of instances of the throwing of hand grenades from bedroom windows by intoxicated soldiers on leave and (by the sound of it), caught up in some sort of domestic/neighbour dispute.   

 

David

Like this from 1916


Craig

[GRANVILLE]

3 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

Like this from 1916


Craig

Well done. I rest my case.

[303man]

A friend has an SMLE in almost as new condition, it was issued to a Kitchener Soldier.  Prior to the Somme he went on leave and was killed in an accident with a tram IIRC in Manchester. His mother kept all his webbing and rifle in a wardrobe and it was discovered when she died.  He acquired the whole lot way back in the early 80's.  I expect with a bit of digging it would not take long to find details of the soldier killed accidentally by a tram whilst on leave.

[Gunner Bailey]

5 hours ago, GRANVILLE said:

Can't quote source now, but I have read accounts of instances of the throwing of hand grenades from bedroom windows by intoxicated soldiers on leave and (by the sound of it), caught up in some sort of domestic/neighbour dispute.   

 

David

 

Yes it happened after WW2 as well. There is an instance of a Mills 36 being thrown from a moving train and blowing up a garden shed, much to the surprise of the local residents.

 

There is also an account of a live mills being left at home by a soldier on leave. After he had returned to the front his wife innocently put it at the back of the stove top plate. It was there for a day when it exploded, killing the woman and two of her children.

 

The restrictions on firearms being held by the public did at first start in earnest after the 1916 uprising and the events in Russia the following year and the growth of socialism, meant that from 1920 onwards every UK government has further and further restricted gun ownership, and we now have the impossibly stupid situation whereby deactivated guns (which are no longer guns) are also being legistlated out of existence. (See other thread in ARMS.)

[RaySearching]

Here's a soldier who brought his rifle home with unfortunate consequences

 

 

 

Ray

[Wexflyer]

On 23/07/2018 at 10:44, PaddyO said:

Apologies if this has been covered previously (I couldn't locate where in a topic search) and if I've posted it in the wrong forum area.

 

I used to quiz my grandfather about his war service and that of his brothers and especially about their father in the Great War. I still recall him telling me how his father used to bring his rifle home on leave. Was this common practice? In this instance it was Ireland (Tipperary). If so how about ammunition?  

 

Maybe earlier in the war, but not later. I am pretty certain that British troops were forbidden to bring rifles to Ireland when on leave. This was a response to some of the patriot forces having acquired arms (voluntarily) from British soldiers on leave (Michael Foy, Brian Barton, The Easter Rising, p79).  In fact, colonial troops were not even allowed to go to Ireland on leave (Hansard, June, 1918).

Edited 25 August , 2018 by Wexflyer

[mandy hall]

13 hours ago, RaySearching said:

Here's a soldier who brought his rifle home with unfortunate consequences

 

 

 

Ray

That is so sad.  The poor family, joy to sorrow in two days.

 

Mandy

[Bordercollie]

On 24/07/2018 at 15:52, voltaire60 said:

 

    That I do not know-but I feel sure "basic training" included small arms-save for limited emergencies-such as the lorry drivers who volunteered in 1914 and were in uniform and in France p.d.q.   Am I right in recalling one of the odd statistics of the war-perhaps from SMBE?--  That running a list of total army strength/ration strength against rifle stocks showed that very often the army did not have enough rifles to go round-hence the stuff such as the Japanese rifle scheme.  in 1914-15.  But as we nowadays have aircraft carriers without aircraft, then the predecessors of MOD Procurement were probably no better back then (with the exception of Sir John Cowans- whose description by Max Aitken is a lovely  character sketch-that he looked like a prosperous provincial corn merchant, with his pockets stuffed with notebooks)

There was certainly a shortage of rifles in Britain in 1915. One of the reasons Kitchener gave for rejecting French's request to be sent 50 Territorial battalions for an offensive towards Zeebrugge in January 1915 was that there were only 250,000 rifles for the existing 490,000 Territorials. (K.W.Mitchinson Defending Albion Britain's home Army 1908-1919 p.94) I assume that was before the Japanese Meiji rifles procured in late 1914 began to be delivered.  

[RaySearching]

3 hours ago, mandy hall said:

That is so sad.  The poor family, joy to sorrow in two days.

 

Mandy

 

Just had to check Lawson out

Date of Death 11th September 1915

stated in the cutting that Lawson had just been released as a prisoner of war ?

which poses the question would a soldier have been released as a prisoner of war in 1915 after being held as a pow for 11 months as per cutting (post 35)

 

CWGC

LAWSON S

Private No 1200.

Date of Death: 11/09/1915 At Royal Infirmary Glasgow

Regiment/Service: 6th Dragoon Guards (Carabiniers)

Grave Reference: A. 2932.

Cemetery: GLASGOW (RIDDRIE PARK) CEMETERY

 

SDGW

Born Barony Lanarkshire

Enlisted Glasgow

 

Soldiers effects sister and sole legatee Mrs. Ann F. Nixon.

 

1891 Census Lanarks., Glasgow, Blythswood, 81 John Street Simon Lawson 9 son, born Glasgow James Lawson 55 Joiner born Holytown, Lanarks.; Elizabeth Lawson 45 Wife born Nairn, Morayshire 7 siblings including Ann Lawson 17 Dressmaker daughter born Lanarks Glasgow

 

The Glasgow Herald, Monday 13th September 1915.

Deaths on Service

LAWSON At Royal Infirmary Glasgow on 11th September Trooper Simon A. Lawson the Carabiniers, att. 2nd. Life Guards aged 33 years.

 

The Glasgow Herald  Monday 11th September, 1916.  In Memoriam

LAWSON. In loving memory of Trooper Simon Lawson, the Carabiniers, who was killed in Sauchiehall Street 11th September 1915 Anna Nixon, 124 York Drive Hyndland.

 

The Glasgow Herald Tuesday, 14th September, 1915 Report that following a hearing at Glasgow Northern Police Court on Monday, 13th Private Quin was remanded in custody for two days.Quin, at the time was in a car proceeding to his home at 8 William Street Cowcaddens Lieutenant Campbell Acting Fiscal asked that Quin should be remanded for two days for inquiry and Bailie Smith who was on the bench, granted the request. The remand was for inquiry as to having on September 11 in a tramcar in Renfield Street, Glasgow recklessly discharged a rifle loaded with ball ammunition and fatally injured a soldier

 

The Glasgow Herald  Thursday 16th September 1915 Report that case was remitted to Sheriff Court where, in chambers, before Sheriff Craigie, Mr George Bradley writer, appeared for accused Quin and asked that he be granted bail. Sheriff Craigie granted bail at £10

 

above  Info source, The Scottish Military Research Group 

 

Ray

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, RaySearching said:

Lawson had just been released as a prisoner of war ?

Here is his ICRC card.  Lawson Simon 1200  LifeGuards

              

 

PA3255 Lazarette list Sept 1915 

says something like shortening of leg; A good case for repatriation?

Edited 26 August , 2018 by charlie962

[calibre792x57.y]

My favourite photo in this line showed two Highlanders outside a railway station, allegedly on leave immediately after the Battle of Loos.  Both were certainly exhibiting a good quantity of chalky mud on their boots  puttees and clothing.  One of them, as well as carrying a S.M.L.E.had a rifle wrapped in sandbags, from the visible bits it was clearly a Gewehr 98.    There was also also an account of one soldier going to the boat to cross the channel on leave, at the gangway he was stopped by M.P.s because he was carrying a souvenir Gew 98.  He was told he could not board with the rifle.  At this point a Brigadier on the deck, leaned over and told the soldier to pass him the rifle which he did.  He was then allowed to board somewhat sullenly by the M.P.s.  When he disembarked in Blighty he was handed the rifle by the officer and told to go home!! There are also a photo taken in WW2 which showed a soldier on leave at a railway station with his family, One of the youngsters was carrying Dad's rifle.  SW

Edited 26 August , 2018 by calibre792x57.y

[charlie962]

On 24/07/2018 at 16:52, voltaire60 said:

very often the army did not have enough rifles to go round

So why did they allow rifles to leave the front ?

 

1918-18 Online has this table which makes it clear how unprepared we were in that area. I was aware of the shell shortage but didn't quite aprreciate the scale of the rifle shortage. I have read the accounts of mobilisation and training and lack of rifles, uniforms etc but a table always makes the point better.

      

Edited 26 August , 2018 by charlie962

[Derek Black]

14 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

So why did they allow rifles to leave the front ?

Presumably those on leave would need them as soon as they returned, so no point giving them to others for the short few days they were back home.

With the continual attrition of men in the trenches being killed and injured there would be no immediate shortage of salvaged weapons for men on the front line. They wouldn't be taking them with them in those cases.

 

Cheers,

Derek.

[Chris Henschke]

The wording in the first paragraph of "Instructions for Officers and Men proceeding on Leave" (Army Form W. 3337) remained unchanged. The earliest imprint that I have is November 1915 and the latest June 1918. Copies of this document were given to each man with his leave form.

 

"Rifles will be taken but no ammunition. This is to be left with unit."

 

Bed coupons for YMCA Aldwych Hut, on the Strand, and the Salvation Army Service Men's Hostel, 61 to 63 Belgrave Road,Victoria (7 minutes from Victoria Station) both have similar wording ;

 

"Overcoats, Rifles or other equipment should be stores in the Kit room."

 

Chris Henschke

Edited 26 August , 2018 by Chris Henschke

[Wexflyer]

2 hours ago, Chris Henschke said:

The wording in the first paragraph of "Instructions for Officers and Men proceeding on Leave" (Army Form W. 3337) remained unchanged. The earliest imprint that I have is November 1915 and the latest June 1918. Copies of this document were given to each man with his leave form.

 

"Rifles will be taken but no ammunition. This is to be left with unit."

 

Bed coupons for YMCA Aldwych Hut, on the Strand, and the Salvation Army Service Men's Hostel, 61 to 63 Belgrave Road,Victoria (7 minutes from Victoria Station) both have similar wording ;

 

"Overcoats, Rifles or other equipment should be stores in the Kit room."

 

Chris Henschke

 

Rifles were still taken from France when going on leave. But if going to Ireland, they were taken away in the Welsh ports.

[593jones]

6 hours ago, charlie962 said:

So why did they allow rifles to leave the front ?

 

I very much doubt whether there would have been a shortage of rifles at the front, even if they were of an obsolescent pattern such as the CLLE's used by the Territorials.  Any shortage, I would have thought, would have been in Great Britain, and would apply to units in training.  I think it was only the Russians who sent men into battle without rifles and instructed them to pick up a casualty's rifle!

[Wexflyer]

4 minutes ago, 593jones said:

  I think it was only the Russians who sent men into battle without rifles and instructed them to pick up a casualty's rifle!

 

A few years later, but there is this famous order by a Japanese general:

"Continue in the task till all your ammunition is expended. If your hands are broken fight with your feet. If your hands and feet are broken use your teeth. If there is no breath left in your body, fight with your spirit. Lack of weapons is no excuse for defeat."

Edited 26 August , 2018 by Wexflyer

[593jones]

Just now, Wexflyer said:

 

A few years later, but there is this famous order by a Japanese general:

"Continue in the task till all your ammunition is expended. If your hands are broken fight with your feet. If your hands and feet are broken use your teeth. If there is no breath left in your body, fight with your spirit. Lack of weapons is no excuse for defeat."

 

If I can edge away from the Great War and slip into the Second World War, John Masters mentions an incident in Burma when a Japanese soldier managed to get up to the wire before being killed.  His rifle was not loaded and his bayonet was not fixed.  I wonder what he intended to do?  Use his rifle as a club?

[MBrockway]

6 hours ago, 593jones said:

 

I very much doubt whether there would have been a shortage of rifles at the front, even if they were of an obsolescent pattern such as the CLLE's used by the Territorials.  Any shortage, I would have thought, would have been in Great Britain, and would apply to units in training.  I think it was only the Russians who sent men into battle without rifles and instructed them to pick up a casualty's rifle!

 

20/KRRC, a pioneer battalion, landed in France on 30 March 1916 without rifles.  By 17 April they still had only 230 rifles for the whole battalion despite being tasked to work very much in the danger zone on the British left around BOESINGHE.

 

 

[charlie962]

So we probably have a shortage at the front and a shortage at training bases. Just to put it in perspective, how many rifles would be out of circulation at a given moment because they are sitting at the soldier's home or in transit ? Hundreds ? No,several thousands presumably rather than tens of?

 

Charlie