9th Bn Loyal North Lancashire Regiment

[PCTooke]

I'm researching Pte 30003 Thomas H Cleworth of 9th Bn Loyal North Lancashire Regiment. I have looked at that battalion's unit war diary WO/95/2246/1 and Red Cross records for him (he was taken prisoner on 22/03/1918). I have also read brief accounts of the battalion's engagements on various websites. Please, can anybody help me with the following conundrums?

 

Our man’s service  was described in the National Roll of the Great War. The entry for him indicates that he joined the army in April 1916 and was sent to France the following July. If he was sent to a theatre of war after only three months’ service, would this not have been highly unusual? 

 

Furthermore, the National Roll indicates that he took part in the Battles of The Somme, Arras, Bullecourt, Ypres, Lens and Cambrai. I have clear evidence that he was involved in at least one action in the later stages of The Somme. However, the war diary for the 9th LNLR covering the periods of the Battles of Arras, Bullecourt and Lens show that the battalion was not involved in them, and was enjoying a relatively peaceful period. Ypres must mean 3rd Ypres, i.e. Passchendaele, which may be correct. However I could not find evidence of involvement at Cambrai either. The National Roll does not make mention of our man's involvement at Messines on 07/06/1917, when it seems that the battalion was engaged. 

 

I am aware that the National Roll of the Great War is not always reliable, as it seems to have been compiled from the recollections of participants or their families, rather than from official sources. However, this degree of divergence seems remarkable. Could somebody please come up with an explanation, or at least a reliable list of battles that the battalion was engaged in?

[EDWARD1]

Check the sister site The Long Long Trail and the 25th Division you will see they took part in all but The Final Advance in Artois.

[tom bowler]

My Grandfather was 9th Loyal North Lancashire Regiment going with them when they first disembarked at Boulogne on 25th September 1915. The dates you mention in 1916. Your man might have been with my Grandfather who was transferred to the 8th Battalion from the 9th Battalion in late August 1916 as they had had a lot of casualties just prior ? My Grandfather was shot in the right thigh in their first attack near to Thiepval. I have no idea how long he was out of action. But he seems to have gone back to the 9th Battalion  afterwards.

Edited 17 August , 2018 by tom bowler
spelling error

[clk]

Hi PCTooke,

 

Basic training in the UK, and then sent overseas shortly afterwards doesn't sound particularly untoward. 

 

I see that his medal roll record shows him overseas as 28667 15/Lancashire Fusiliers, and later 30003 "9 N Lan R" (sic). If you were to look for men that have surviving service records with near regimental service numbers, hopefully you may be able to date when his 28667 and 30003 numbers date from, and make some inferences.

 

I think though that without his service record, it is at least conceivable (however remote) that he may have been sent from the UK to serve with the 15/LF arriving at the Infantry Base Depot, where he might have been transferred to the Loyal North Lancs without having served with them 'in the field'. The other main likely scenarios would seem to be that he did serve with 15/LF in the field, but was wounded/fell sick and having recovered was transferred to the 9/LNL; or that the Lancashire Fusiliers provided a draft of men to bolster the numbers in the LNL. I think that that there is a lot of scratching about to do to come up with some likely conclusions.

 

Regards

Chris

[PCTooke]

1. On 17 August 2018 at 22:42, clk said:

   Hi PCTooke,

    

   Basic training in the UK, and then sent overseas shortly afterwards doesn't sound particularly untoward. 

    

   I see that his medal roll record shows him overseas as 28667 15/Lancashire Fusiliers, and later 30003 "9 N Lan R" (sic). If you were to look for men that have surviving service records with near regimental service numbers, hopefully you may be able to date when his 28667 and 30003 numbers date from, and make some inferences.

    

   I think though that without his service record, it is at least conceivable (however remote) that he may have been sent from the UK to serve with the 15/LF arriving at the Infantry Base Depot, where he might have been transferred to the Loyal North Lancs without having served with them 'in the field'. The other main likely scenarios would seem to be that he did serve with 15/LF in the field, but was wounded/fell sick and having recovered was transferred to the 9/LNL; or that the Lancashire Fusiliers provided a draft of men to bolster the numbers in the LNL. I think that that there is a lot of scratching about to do to come up with some likely conclusions.

    

   Regards

   Chris

    

Thanks to all for your ideas

Regards,

Peter

[PJS]

On 17/08/2018 at 08:59, PCTooke said:

I am aware that the National Roll of the Great War is not always reliable, as it seems to have been compiled from the recollections of participants or their families, rather than from official sources. However, this degree of divergence seems remarkable. Could somebody please come up with an explanation, or at least a reliable list of battles that the battalion was engaged in?

 

The Loyal North Lancashire Regiment 1914-1919, by H. C. Wylly says that the 9th LNLR fought at the Somme, Ploegsteert, Messines, Bapaume, Lys, Second Battle of the Asine & Kemmel. I have the book and the 9th LNLR war diary (WO 95/246/1) and the book provides some contextual information not provided in the War Diary but it does not really provide an extensive coverage of the 9th.

 

Peter

[RussT]

I can confirm that the LF number of 28667 would have been allotted around 8th April 1916 at the LF Depot, Bury.

 

As suggested by Chris in post #4, I'm pretty certain that Cleworth was transferred from the LF at an IBD Etaples to the LNLR towards end of July 1916 when the 3000x LNLR numbers were allotted (not many records found). A clue also lies in the LNLR medal rolls, in that these (ex LF) men are in approximate surname alphabetical order from 29998 (Arronson) to 30026 (Whittle) and who mostly went to the 9th Bn LNLR.

 

Regards

 

Russ

 

 

[brianmorris547]

On 17/08/2018 at 17:43, tom bowler said:

My Grandfather was 9th Loyal North Lancashire Regiment going with them when they first disembarked at Boulogne on 25th September 1915. The dates you mention in 1916. Your man might have been with my Grandfather who was transferred to the 8th Battalion from the 9th Battalion in late August 1916 as they had had a lot of casualties just prior ? My Grandfather was shot in the right thigh in their first attack near to Thiepval. I have no idea how long he was out of action. But he seems to have gone back to the 9th Battalion  afterwards.

Tom

Was your grandfather from Bolton by any chance? The Bolton Journal 28/05/1915 pictured and named twelve Boltonians in D Coy 9 LNL and on 06/08/1915 pictured and named ten scouts of 9 LNL. The Bolton Chronicle had the same picture of the scouts on 01/04/1916 reporting that they were from Bolton (but different spellings for some of the names) and another picture naming seven more Bolton boys of 9 LNL.

Brian

[tom bowler]

6 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

Tom

Was your grandfather from Bolton by any chance? The Bolton Journal 28/05/1915 pictured and named twelve Boltonians in D Coy 9 LNL and on 06/08/1915 pictured and named ten scouts of 9 LNL. The Bolton Chronicle had the same picture of the scouts on 01/04/1916 reporting that they were from Bolton (but different spellings for some of the names) and another picture naming seven more Bolton boys of 9 LNL.

Brian

My Grandad was a  Wiganer /(wigginer) Brian. He was B Coy when shot and taken POW in the Kaiserschlacht - 11th April 1918 - near Armentieres.

Edited 20 August , 2018 by tom bowler
extra info.

[PCTooke]

Thanks to everyone who has helped me on this topic. Pte Cleworth was a Salford man, in case this helps anyone. 

[brianmorris547]

For interest I will post these pictures from the Bolton papers here. I have had them for some time and was going to start a thread. I did some background on some of the men which led me to the Bn WD for July 1916. (WO 95/2246/1) and the WD of 74 Infantry Brigade (WO 95/2245/1). The Brigade attacked two enemy lines on 07/07/1916 co-ordinates X 14 c 79 99 to X 14 d 29 38 and X 14 a 67 95 to X 14 b 42. (Map 57 D - There are maps in the 74 IB WD). The attack was successful but with heavy losses. The Bn WD records that 70 men were killed. A check on SDGW shows that 38 were born or enlisted in Bolton. 

On the first picture, Bolton men of D Coy, James Coffey no 14624 was wounded on 07/07/1916 and had his left arm amputated. James Nightingale no 14553 was k in a on 07/07/1916. Both men have service records which show that they enlisted on the same day 07/09/1914 and were probably friends.

On the second picture, Scouts of 9 LNL, Albert Victor Brownhill no 14623 and George Gulsham no 14822 (shown on rolls as Culshaw) were both k in a on 07/07/1916. Both men have service records.

Edited 26 August , 2018 by brianmorris547

[brianmorris547]

This is the remaining photo of 9 LNL which appeared in the Bolton Chronicle 01/04/1916. As far as I can tell Private Howarth DCM was Robert Howarth no 14566 whose citation is in the LG 29508 of 15/03/1916. He was awarded the DCM for his work with a machine gun. The Unit WD records that there was a raid on 19/01/1916 and the OC remarks in his report, "I am sending in the names of a few individuals who are, I consider, specially worthy of attention". 

The 74 IB WD names the men who were awarded the DCM in this Action. It records 14566 Cpl M Carthy 2 Royal Irish Rifles. Cpl Carthy's number however was 7752 and his citation is also in the same LG. There are a lot of papers in the WD of 25 Div HQ General Staff about this Action but no mention of Honours and Rewards. Nor any mention in the 25 Div A&QMG. I will check Bolton library tomorrow for the award of the DCM to Robert Howarth.

[clk]

Hi Brian,

 

The DCM 'registers' show:

 

Images sourced from the National Archives - file WO 391/4

 

I think that the Brigade diary has recorded Carthy's number incorrectly as Howarth's, and for some reason Howarth himself isn't noted in the diary entry.

 

Regards

Chris

 

[brianmorris547]

Chris

Thanks. That's the conclusion that I came to. Hopefully all will be resolved later today if the Bolton papers have a report of Robert Howarth's DCM. The picture was probably taken before the Bn went to France and the names (including the DCM) added later.

Brian

Edited 28 August , 2018 by brianmorris547
typo

[brianmorris547]

Robert Howarth was one of three serving brothers who lived at 152 Elgin St, Bolton. There are a lot of reports about them in the Bolton papers. I read about them when I was researching the Bolton Artillery some years ago. The three brothers were pictured when Robert's DCM was reported in the Bolton Journal 11/02/1916. Robert was then wounded in August 1916 and was presented with his Award by the Mayor in March 1917 as he was convalescing in hospital in Bolton. Robert later went on to serve with the Labour Corps.

Sadly, his brother Sidney of 5 LNL was k in a on 09/08/1916 in the attack on Guillemont and his brother Will died of wounds in 14 GH Boulogne on 18/10/1917. Will was an original Bolton Artillery man who had served in Egypt and Gallipoli. According to the RSE he was serving with B/210 Brigade RFA. The papers reported the death of both brothers and that Will's wife had travelled to Boulogne only to find that Will had been buried the previous day.

[brianmorris547]

I was reading the 1916 WDs of 172 Tunnelling Co RE at Kew last Saturday and some men from 9 LNL were mentioned. (The WD names o/rs). On 25/07/1916 it records that 18341 Pte Baron W was wounded (gassed). On 03/08 it records 14880 Yates J, wounded - burns and  15445 Yates W, wounded - shock. Finally on 14/08 it records that 22166 Cufter T and 15994 Oliver J were k in a. There is no mention in the WDs of 9 LNL or 74 IB that there were any working parties attached so they were perhaps training to be Tunnellers. Oddly for the LNL, I could not find any Service Records. According to SDGW James Oliver was from Bolton so I will check the papers.

EDIT: From the Bolton Journal 01/09/1916. The History Centre were aware of his attachment to 172 TC.

Edited 18 September , 2018 by brianmorris547
additional info