Astro Posted 2 October , 2019 Share Posted 2 October , 2019 (edited) My teacher showed me an artillery shell and I was curious to know what the abbreviations AADr 60 (Case sensitive) would mean as well as an overlapping HS that were engraved in the bottom Edited 8 October , 2019 by Astro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peregrinvs Posted 3 October , 2019 Share Posted 3 October , 2019 (edited) It's probably a German 7,7cm FK.96 cartridge case. (Not shell) 'AADr' is likely a conjoined AWDr which is the monogram for the Artillerie Werkstatt Dresden. The conjoined HS is - so I have read elsewhere - the monogram of an unknown manufacturer probably located in Saxony. But ideally we need some dimensions and a picture. Edited 3 October , 2019 by peregrinvs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro Posted 3 October , 2019 Author Share Posted 3 October , 2019 (edited) Thank you so much Edited 3 October , 2019 by Astro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro Posted 4 October , 2019 Author Share Posted 4 October , 2019 (edited) These are the things I wasn't sure of Edited 4 October , 2019 by Astro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 4 October , 2019 Share Posted 4 October , 2019 (edited) The 'HS' could perhaps equally well be 'SH' for Siemens Halske. Edited 4 October , 2019 by MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 4 October , 2019 Share Posted 4 October , 2019 In my limited knowledge I would say that was indeed a Siemens Halske mark and that’s defiantly the AWDr mark. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14276265 Posted 4 October , 2019 Share Posted 4 October , 2019 25 minutes ago, jay dubaya said: that’s defiantly the AWDr mark. The AWDr/60 Inspector's stamp is actually quite subdued compared to some inspection stamps - such as some of the HL stamps. As for the monogram, the HS with the "sunburst" around it is just too different from the Siemens und Halske monogram (below). A similar arrangement of the H and the S, but that's as far as it goes. 265 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 4 October , 2019 Share Posted 4 October , 2019 Like I said limited knowledge and very much a newbie to German ordnance, the monogram is very similar so perhaps a wartime licence for contractors to SH and based in Saxony? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro Posted 5 October , 2019 Author Share Posted 5 October , 2019 I am a little confused right now because I searched up what the ST means and it turns out that its a manufacturer's headstamp from the Royal Artillery Factory in Steeton (England). However I'm being told that the AWDr means On 03/10/2019 at 02:49, peregrinvs said: Artillerie Werkstatt Dresden Which I assume is German Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 5 October , 2019 Share Posted 5 October , 2019 St - strengthened case (Stark) AWDr - Artillery Workshop Dresden (Artillerie Werkstaatt Dresden) J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14276265 Posted 5 October , 2019 Share Posted 5 October , 2019 St is a late war (German) abbreviation meaning the case is thick walled. It has been suggested that St is for Stark (German - strong) but there does not seem to be any documentary evidence to support such a theory. It seems to be one of those things that someone once said it, and thereafter the myth was created. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 5 October , 2019 Share Posted 5 October , 2019 1 minute ago, 14276265 said: St is a late war (German) abbreviation meaning the case is thick walled. It has been suggested that St is for Stark (German - strong) but there does not seem to be any documentary evidence to support such a theory. It seems to be one of those things that someone once said it, and thereafter the myth was created. Enlightened thank you 265, but none the less we can say for sure this case is German and not British J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro Posted 5 October , 2019 Author Share Posted 5 October , 2019 Thanks guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro Posted 6 October , 2019 Author Share Posted 6 October , 2019 I was wondering what the circled 36 means as well as what would have caused that partial square at the top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14276265 Posted 6 October , 2019 Share Posted 6 October , 2019 36 - Lot number. And just one of those random scratches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 6 October , 2019 Share Posted 6 October , 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, 14276265 said: 36 - Lot number. And just one of those random scratches. Might have been where the sliding breechblock crossed the casehead as the round was chambered. Or a pressure-copied witness to a corresponding machining mark on the block. Edited 6 October , 2019 by MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14276265 Posted 6 October , 2019 Share Posted 6 October , 2019 4 hours ago, MikB said: Might have been where the sliding breechblock crossed the casehead as the round was chambered. Or a pressure-copied witness to a corresponding machining mark on the block. It's not a mark I've seen on images of other fired 77mm case heads - plenty can be found elsewhere on GWF and on Ordnance forums, but not to say it was not possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 6 October , 2019 Share Posted 6 October , 2019 3 hours ago, 14276265 said: It's not a mark I've seen on images of other fired 77mm case heads - plenty can be found elsewhere on GWF and on Ordnance forums, but not to say it was not possible. Yes, I can see your point, and other speculations are plausible - eg. long term contact with a corner of a metal box in some mildly corrosive condition. But it just looked too close to a right angle to be really random - it looks like there was a single cause for both marks. Probably futile to pursue much further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro Posted 6 October , 2019 Author Share Posted 6 October , 2019 (edited) 17 hours ago, 14276265 said: 36 - Lot number. What is this? And you guys said that there was nothing behind the partial square right? Edited 6 October , 2019 by Astro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 6 October , 2019 Share Posted 6 October , 2019 The lot number relates to the particular batch from the case manufacturers. I personally think the square marking is nothing more than where the case had stood for the last 100 years J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro Posted 6 October , 2019 Author Share Posted 6 October , 2019 6 hours ago, 14276265 said: Might have been where the sliding breech block crossed the casehead as the round was chambered So you don't think that this is the situation @jay dubaya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro Posted 7 October , 2019 Author Share Posted 7 October , 2019 So the only possibility for the knowledge of this case's manufacturing is Siemens und Halske Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 7 October , 2019 Share Posted 7 October , 2019 (edited) 18 hours ago, Astro said: So you don't think that this is the situation @jay dubaya There's no way to know I can think of. Jay's obviously seen a lot more 77mm. cases than I have, and not come across the mark before. If there was a common machining mark or burr on the breech block that the pressure on firing could fire-form into the case head, you'd expect it to be seen with frequency from occasional to often, and it appears not to be. As he says, it's still possible (perhaps from a hard grain of sand or suchlike trapped between breech and case head), but any other explanation is at least as likely. Edited 7 October , 2019 by MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro Posted 7 October , 2019 Author Share Posted 7 October , 2019 Ok thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro Posted 7 October , 2019 Author Share Posted 7 October , 2019 (edited) What about the 60 underneath the AWDr I've also been told that Artillery shells aren't often made of copper so why would the bottom say 67% copper Edited 7 October , 2019 by Astro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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