WW1 Artillery shell headstamp engravings (light artillery case)

[Astro]

My teacher showed me an artillery shell and I was curious to know what the abbreviations AADr 60 (Case sensitive) would mean as well as an overlapping HS that were engraved in the bottom

Edited 8 October , 2019 by Astro

[peregrinvs]

It's probably a German 7,7cm FK.96 cartridge case. (Not shell) 'AADr' is likely a conjoined AWDr which is the monogram for the Artillerie Werkstatt Dresden. The conjoined HS is - so I have read elsewhere - the monogram of an unknown manufacturer probably located in Saxony.

 

But ideally we need some dimensions and a picture. 

Edited 3 October , 2019 by peregrinvs

[Astro]

Thank you so much

 

Edited 3 October , 2019 by Astro

[Astro]

These are the things I wasn't sure of

Edited 4 October , 2019 by Astro

[MikB]

The 'HS' could perhaps equally well be 'SH' for Siemens Halske.

Edited 4 October , 2019 by MikB

[jay dubaya]

In my limited knowledge I would say that was indeed a Siemens Halske mark and that’s defiantly the AWDr mark.

 

J

[14276265]

25 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

 that’s defiantly the AWDr mark.

 

 

The AWDr/60 Inspector's stamp is actually quite subdued compared to some inspection stamps - such as some of the HL stamps.

 

As for the monogram, the HS with the "sunburst" around it is just too different from the Siemens und Halske monogram (below). A similar arrangement of the H and the S, but that's as far as it goes.

 

 

 

265

[jay dubaya]

Like I said limited knowledge and very much a newbie to German ordnance,  the monogram is very similar so perhaps a wartime licence for contractors to SH and based in Saxony?

[Astro]

I am a little confused right now because I searched up what the ST means and it turns out that its a manufacturer's headstamp from the Royal Artillery Factory in Steeton (England). However I'm being told that the AWDr means 

On 03/10/2019 at 02:49, peregrinvs said:

Artillerie Werkstatt Dresden

Which I assume is German 

[jay dubaya]

St - strengthened case (Stark)

 

AWDr - Artillery Workshop Dresden (Artillerie Werkstaatt Dresden)

 

J

[14276265]

St is a late war (German) abbreviation meaning the case is thick walled. It has been suggested that St is for Stark (German - strong) but there does not seem to be any documentary evidence to support such a theory. It seems to be one of those things that someone once said it, and thereafter the myth was created.

[jay dubaya]

1 minute ago, 14276265 said:

St is a late war (German) abbreviation meaning the case is thick walled. It has been suggested that St is for Stark (German - strong) but there does not seem to be any documentary evidence to support such a theory. It seems to be one of those things that someone once said it, and thereafter the myth was created.

 

Enlightened thank you 265, but none the less we can say for sure this case is German and not British

 

J

[Astro]

Thanks guys 

[Astro]

I was wondering what the circled 36 means as well as what would have caused that partial square at the top 

 

[14276265]

36 - Lot number.

 

And just one of those random scratches.

[MikB]

7 hours ago, 14276265 said:

36 - Lot number.

 

And just one of those random scratches.

 

Might have been where the sliding breechblock crossed the casehead as the round was chambered.

 

Or a pressure-copied witness to a corresponding machining mark on the block.

Edited 6 October , 2019 by MikB

[14276265]

4 hours ago, MikB said:

 

Might have been where the sliding breechblock crossed the casehead as the round was chambered.

 

Or a pressure-copied witness to a corresponding machining mark on the block.

 

It's not a mark I've seen on images of other fired 77mm case heads - plenty can be found elsewhere on GWF and on Ordnance forums, but not to say it was not possible.

[MikB]

3 hours ago, 14276265 said:

 

It's not a mark I've seen on images of other fired 77mm case heads - plenty can be found elsewhere on GWF and on Ordnance forums, but not to say it was not possible.

 

Yes, I can see your point, and other speculations are plausible - eg. long term contact with a corner of a metal box in some mildly corrosive condition. But it just looked too close to a right angle to be really random - it looks like there was a single cause for both marks. Probably futile to pursue much further.

[Astro]

17 hours ago, 14276265 said:

36 - Lot number.

What is this?

 

And you guys said that there was nothing behind the partial square right?

Edited 6 October , 2019 by Astro

[jay dubaya]

The lot number relates to the particular batch from the case manufacturers. I personally think the square marking is nothing more than where the case had stood for the last 100 years

 

J

[Astro]

6 hours ago, 14276265 said:

Might have been where the sliding breech block crossed the casehead as the round was chambered

So you don't think that this is the situation @jay dubaya

 

[Astro]

So the only possibility for the knowledge of this case's manufacturing is Siemens und Halske

[MikB]

18 hours ago, Astro said:

So you don't think that this is the situation @jay dubaya

 

There's no way to know I can think of. Jay's obviously seen a lot more 77mm. cases than I have, and not come across the mark before. If there was a common machining mark or burr on the breech block that the pressure on firing could fire-form into the case head, you'd expect it to be seen with frequency from occasional to often, and it appears not to be. As he says, it's still possible (perhaps from a hard grain of sand or suchlike trapped between breech and case head), but any other explanation is at least as likely. 

Edited 7 October , 2019 by MikB

[Astro]

Ok thank you

[Astro]

What about the 60 underneath the AWDr

I've also been told that Artillery shells aren't often made of copper so why would the bottom say 67% copper

 

 

Edited 7 October , 2019 by Astro