Help With South African Magazine Lee Enfield Markings Please.

[GWF1967]

Hi,

 can anyone help with the butt and barrel makings on this M.L.E Please.

   It has Cape Government and South African stamps.

 It’s marked Enfield. 1899. L.E. 1* 1 at the wrist which I believe indicates it was reconditioned before export to South Africa. The barrel is BSA made and stamped HV - High Velocity to indicate use of Mk VII ammunition. Does the Z mark also relate to the type of ammunition; (Mk VII z.)?

 The Butt plate is stamped N.V.B. would this be an original UK stamp for a Volunteer Battalion or for a S.A. unit?  

Edited 4 October , 2019 by GWF1967

[MikB]

1 hour ago, GWF1967 said:

Hi,

...

Does the Z mark also relate to the type of ammunition; (Mk VII z.)?

 

 

The ballistics and pressures of Mk.VIIz amunition were supposed to be matched to previous (Cordite MDT 5-2) Mk.VII, so it's not easy to see that it'd make any difference worth marking on the rifle.

[4thGordons]

Probably your best bet for an interpretation of all of these would be TERRYLEE expert on enfields and esp S.African ones. It would probably be worth dropping him a PM or adding S Africa to the title so it catches his attention.

 

In the mean time I'll have a go!

 

This is an interesting set of markings.

Is the rifle in MLE format or has it been converted to SMLE format? (an overview of the entire rifle would be good!) HERE is what came to mind to me when I saw the pictures

 

While I have not seen it marked like this before "Z" is usually used to denote something that has been written off as "beyond local repair" (usually stamped or painted ZF or Z-BLR or ZBER (beyond economic repair). Here as it is overstamped over the BSA trademark I wonder if it isn't some form of cancellation stamp? Or if it has some meaning specific to South Africa (again Terrylee is your best bet)

It is NOT as far as I know related to ammunition, (MkVIIIz ammunition being machine gun ammuntion) HV does relate to  MkVII ammunition as you say, indicating the rifle is sighted for it and this is more usually found on ShtLEs or CLLEs than MLEs.

Is there a date on the left side of the barrel (under the upper handguard?) from the markings on the barrel it looks to me as though it has been gripped with a rather ill fitting wrench? perhaps a replacement?

 

The 1 below the MkI* is also somewhat mysterious to me - I don't believe I have seen it before on an Enfield. On older rifles (esp Martinis) you see it and it usually referred to as being a grading of the weapon ("class 1", "class 2" etc).

Reconditioning (or grading as above) prior to export sounds plausible but I have not seen it before - a quick scan of Skennerton (TLE) does not show an illustration of such a marking (or the Z stamp either - I just looked!)

 

Chris

 

Edited 4 October , 2019 by 4thGordons
glaring typo!

[GWF1967]

17 minutes ago, 4thGordons said:

Probably your best bet for an interpretation of all of these would be TERRYLEE expert on enfields and esp S.African ones. It would probably be worth dropping him a PM or adding S Africa to the title so it catches his attention.

 

In the mean time I'll have a go!

 

This is an interesting set of markings.

Is the rifle in MLE format or has it been converted to SMLE format? (an overview of the entire rifle would be good!) HERE is what came to mind to me when I saw the pictures

 

While I have not seen it marked like this before "Z" is usually used to denote something that has been written off as "beyond local repair" (usually stamped or painted ZF or Z-BLR or ZBER (beyond economic repair). Here as it is overstamped over the BSA trademark I wonder if it isn't some form of cancellation stamp? Or if it has some meaning specific to South Africa (again Terrylee is your best bet)

It is NOT as far as I know related to ammunition, (MkVIIIz ammunition being machine gun ammuntion) HV does relate to  MkVII ammunition as you say, indicating the rifle is sighted for it and this is more usually found on ShtLEs or CLLEs than MLEs.

Is there a date on the left side of the barrel (under the upper handguard?) from the markings on the barrel it looks to me as though it has been gripped with a rather ill fitting wrench? perhaps a replacement?

 

The 1 below the MkI* is also somewhat mysterious to me - I don't believe I have seen it before on an Enfield. On older rifles (esp Martinis) you see it and it usually referred to as being a grading of the weapon ("class 1", "class 2" etc).

Reconditioning (or grading as above) prior to export sounds plausible but I have not seen it before - a quick scan of Skennerton (TLE) does not show an illustration of such a marking (or the Z stamp either - I just looked!)

 

Chris

 

Thanks for your thoughts Chris. I found another 1* 1 marked M.L.E. on the forum ( can’t find it now though), no HV or Z marks from what I recall.

 I checked Skennerton before posting. 

Here are a couple of pictures of the rifle; it looks as if it’s had a hard life. 

 

Edited 4 October , 2019 by GWF1967

[GWF1967]

25 minutes ago, MikB said:

 

The ballistics and pressures of Mk.VIIz amunition were supposed to be matched to previous (Cordite MDT 5-2) Mk.VII, so it's not easy to see that it'd make any difference worth marking on the rifle.

Thanks. 

[GWF1967]

51 minutes ago, 4thGordons said:

While I have not seen it marked like this before "Z" is usually used to denote something that has been written off as "beyond local repair" (usually stamped or painted ZF or Z-BLR or ZBER (beyond economic repair). Here as it is overstamped over the BSA trademark I wonder if it isn't some form of cancellation stamp? 

 

The barrel damage here may explain the “Z” mark. 

[JMB1943]

GWF,

 

Nice rifle !!!

NVB = Natal Volunteer Brigade of the Boer War?

 

Regards,

JMB

 

[Terrylee]

 

GWF,  4^th  Gordons has already covered technical issues relating to this rifle, so I’ll concentrate on the South African side.  Its present form is that of a cadet rifle which was probably converted towards the end or shortly following the Second World War. Like yours, mine was also originally issued to the Natal Volunteer Brigade.  

The 1899 date on yours, with issue to the Natal Volunteer Brigade indicates that it would have been imported during the Boer War. The NVB has an interesting history.  Due to legislative constraints, the regular Natal Volunteer Regiments were not generally permitted to serve beyond the Borders of Natal.  Following the Natal Campaign, and to accommodate those volunteers who wished to serve, the NVB was formed with its members seeing considerable action as scouts. 

It would seem that following the end of the war your rifle was acquired by, and marked to, the Cape Government, in whose possession it was in 1912 when the colonial regiments became part of the Union Defence Force whose marking your rifle also carries. As with virtually every UDF rifle that I have ever seen, it was at some stage officially rebarrelled with a BSA commercial barrel.

Although I have seen no archival proof of this, some South African collectors claim that the “Z” marking is an early South African sale marking. If so, that would fit your rifle since it was obviously in private ownership at the start of the Second World War. The Smuts Government, remembering the 1914 Rebellion, commandeered about 35,000 Lee Metford/Lee Enfield rifles (Archival Information) These were put to a number of uses including training, conversion to “No.1 Converteds” (4250) and also cut down into cadet rifles like ours. (I carried one as a cadet in the late 1950s!)

These cadet rifles remained in use until the 1970s but were deactivated in about 1966. Is yours deactivated? Mine obviously “escaped” beforehand! Like yours, they were issued without magazines.  Deactivated examples still turn up at flea markets.

[GWF1967]

54 minutes ago, Terrylee said:

 

 

GWF,  4^th  Gordons has already covered technical issues relating to this rifle, so I’ll concentrate on the South African side.  Its present form is that of a cadet rifle which was probably converted towards the end or shortly following the Second World War. Like yours, mine was also originally issued to the Natal Volunteer Brigade.  

 

The 1899 date on yours, with issue to the Natal Volunteer Brigade indicates that it would have been imported during the Boer War. The NVB has an interesting history.  Due to legislative constraints, the regular Natal Volunteer Regiments were not generally permitted to serve beyond the Borders of Natal.  Following the Natal Campaign, and to accommodate those volunteers who wished to serve, the NVB was formed with its members seeing considerable action as scouts. 

 

It would seem that following the end of the war your rifle was acquired by, and marked to, the Cape Government, in whose possession it was in 1912 when the colonial regiments became part of the Union Defence Force whose marking your rifle also carries. As with virtually every UDF rifle that I have ever seen, it was at some stage officially rebarrelled with a BSA commercial barrel.

 

Although I have seen no archival proof of this, some South African collectors claim that the “Z” marking is an early South African sale marking. If so, that would fit your rifle since it was obviously in private ownership at the start of the Second World War. The Smuts Government, remembering the 1914 Rebellion, commandeered about 35,000 Lee Metford/Lee Enfield rifles (Archival Information) These were put to a number of uses including training, conversion to “No.1 Converteds” (4250) and also cut down into cadet rifles like ours. (I carried one as a cadet in the late 1950s!)

 

These cadet rifles remained in use until the 1970s but were deactivated in about 1966. Is yours deactivated? Mine obviously “escaped” beforehand! Like yours, they were issued without magazines.  Deactivated examples still turn up at flea markets.

 

 

Many thanks indeed for your reply.

 It's a wall hanger only, but it is great to have a full pedigree.

8 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

GWF,

 

Nice rifle !!!

NVB = Natal Volunteer Brigade of the Boer War?

 

Regards,

JMB

 

Thanks. 

[4thGordons]

2 hours ago, Terrylee said:

 

 

 

 

Terrylee

Great information as always -

if I may,  a few questions - are these rifles ShtLE length?

In some ways they are similar to the Australian "rifle club pattern" (MLEs shortened so they could still be used to compete in service matches after the ShtLE became the standard issue arm)

Are they ShtLE barrels or shortened MLE barrels?

In cadet service (pre 1966) were they used for musketry/target practice or were they just drill rifles? If the former I am wondering about the sighting as they appear to retain the original rear sight so I would assume calibration is totally off?

Sounds like I need to visit flea markets in SA to fill this gap in my collection! 

Chris

 

[Terrylee]

Chris, you raise some interesting points.:

The Long Lees converted into cadet rifles are about 10 cms shorter that the SMLE. When I was a cadet the Long Lee conversions were used by the senior cadets while the younger (smaller) boys used Martini Metford/Enfield carbines with a smattering of shortened Martini Henrys.

 

To my knowledge, prior to deactivation, virtually all the cadet rifles could have been fired and some of the .303 Martini carbines had actually been modified to only accept blanks. These were fired at a very few schools. (See attached archival document) I expect that the Martini Metford/Enfield carbines were selected since they would accept blanks without magazines.

 

I have found no evidence that it was ever intended to fire the Long Lee based cadet rifles. What I find here very strange is that the front sights were carefully remounted and the shortened ORIGINAL barrels beautifully re-crowned. My previously shown cadet rifle was originally a Lee Mrtford Mk II and retains its shortened Metford barrel. Terry

 

 

 

Edited 5 October , 2019 by Terrylee