Armband, Trade Badge and shoulder strap?

[Pete Gilbert]

Good day all

 

This is the only known picture I have of my great uncle John Henry Clements (b Plymouth 1896) (he is the soldier on the right).  The picture was taken during WWI, but the family have no other details on his war service, despite numerous searches in Ancestry and other sites.  We are interested in identifying: the armband on the right sleeve; the trade badge on his left sleeve and the gilt insignia on his shoulder strap.  The chevrons on the left-hand soldier's cuff we know identify overseas service  Any help would be gratefully accepted.  

 

[DavidOwen]

Hi Pete

 

Welcome to the forum, I have edited your title to hopefully attract more interest.

 

Good luck with your research

 

David

[Old Owl]

45 minutes ago, Pete Gilbert said:

Good day all

 

This is the only known picture I have of my great uncle John Henry Clements (b Plymouth 1896) (he is the soldier on the right).  The picture was taken during WWI, but the family have no other details on his war service, despite numerous searches in Ancestry and other sites.  We are interested in identifying: the armband on the right sleeve; the trade badge on his left sleeve and the gilt insignia on his shoulder strap.  The chevrons on the left-hand soldier's cuff we know identify overseas service  Any help would be gratefully accepted.  

 

Welcome to the Forum,

 

The armband looks like a 'Signals' one, the shoulder title is very short so could be RE or RFA (Royal Engineers or Royal Field Artillery) and the arm badge on the right forearm looks like a 'Shamrock' badge as worn by the 38th (Irish) Brigade.

Also the man on the right appears to be wearing a single medal ribbon--possibly an MM (Military Medal) and what could be crossed rifles on his left arm, but this is too high up the arm so may just be a mark on the photo. He also wears Lance Corporals stripes, one on each upper arm.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Robert

Edited 20 October , 2019 by Old Owl

[charlie962]

Pete, welcome to the Forum.

 

There is an interesting character John Clements who was from Devonport who won an MM with the 23 HAG RGA LG 21/8/17  Service number 51349, and then went on to win a bar as a Sapper RE ( attd RGA) no 312469 per LG 13/9/18.

 

His MIC says he went overseas 18/7/15.

 

Could he be a possible candidate ? Apologies in advance if its a red herring, but he was the only MM winner seeming to fit. The question is of course 'is that ribbon MM ?' The fact that the soldier on the left has overseas service chevrons means that the photo is late war.

The badge on his left elbow is clearly a mistake and whoever coloured in has misinterpretted a crease ?

 

Charlie

 

PS  Looking closely at the ribbon I think it could be MM with a rosette indicating a bar awarded.

 

courtesy NA

Edited 20 October , 2019 by charlie962

[Steven Broomfield]

20 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

 

 

Charlie

 

PS  Looking closely at the ribbon I think it could be MM with a rosette indicating a bar awarded.

 

courtesy NA

 

 

Certainly my first impression.

 

The 'X' on his left arm looks like a mark on the picture (possibly identifying the subject?)

[charlie962]

Just now, Steven Broomfield said:

possibly identifying the subject?

good thinking

[Pete Gilbert]

Good day Charlie

 

Thanks to you and Old Owl and David Owen above for your fast help.

 

This could very well be him! John Henry Clements was born in 1896 in Morice Town (effectively Devonport) in Plymouth, Devon.  His father John Edward, was a CPO in the RN before and during the war, and his younger brother James (b: Plymouth, 1899) joined the Machine Gun Corps in August 1918, but never left England. 

 

I'd be really interested if there is any more information on his service during and post-WWI.  A very large number of my paternal and maternal served during WWI, but unfortunately the vast majority of their records have not survived.

 

Rgds

 

Pete

Thanks to Steve B, as well.

 

I presume that for the award of an MM and B, there would be citations researchable?

 

Rgds

 

pete

[charlie962]

pete, slight problem*** now in that I find this website attributes John Clements as being born 1891 son of Samuel and Catherine. But where did they get their info ? (edit--there is indeed a John Henry Clements on 1911 census son of Samuel and Catherine but how did above site make the link to MM ? Could they be mistaken or did they find a newspaper article ?)

 

MM citations were all destroyed WW2 but often local newspapers gave a bit of info.

 

When did your John Henry marry and to whom?

 

Charlie

 

***Edit-Update-  This Marriage 1915 is the 1891 born John Henry, son of Samuel. It shows he was working in the RN Dockyard at the time-25/9/15- so could hardly be going of to France with the RGA in July 1915.  (image courtesy Findmypast)

 

So I think we can ignore the Devonheritage info !!

Edited 20 October , 2019 by charlie962

[charlie962]

Just a further question on your John Henry. The 1911 Census shows the family at 56 Monument St.  The School Admissions Register shows John Henry as born 24/6/1895 ??

[charlie962]

45 minutes ago, Pete Gilbert said:

His father John Edward,

The father I quoted for 1911 Census was John Henry Clements POcl1, 1857-1920

[charlie962]

If we still have the correct Clements, MM and Bar, I see his medals were sold in 2007 for GBP 763.00

 

[charlie962]

Lack of citations is frustrating. War Diary may give a clue ?

 

The fact that he was a signaller (as indicated by the armband) means that he could be out repairing lines during bombardments; very dangerous work that often (but not often enough) was rewarded with an MM for keeping communications going.

 

His first MM was with HQ 23 Heavy Artillery Group which emphasises the probability of him being in communications/signalling work.

 

Charlie

 

War Diaries for 23 HAG are here, under 23 Brigade RGA:

Edited 20 October , 2019 by charlie962

[Pete Gilbert]

Hi Charlie

 

John Henry Clements was certainly born in 1896: the 1939 register shows that he was born in late 1896, and the 1911 census also reflects this.  His slightly younger sister, Mary Emma (b 1897) was my paternal grandmother and it is from her that the picture has passed down through my father and thence to me. 

 

I understand the John Henry Clements (24 June 1895) mentioned above was actually John ELLERY Clements, who was born on that day in 1895.

 

The John Henry I am aware of died in 1971.  It is possible that He married Emily Stoneman in 1920 and had two children, but none of my few remaining family know anything of them, so it could indeed not be the correct John Clements.  There is another John Clements in the 1939 Register, who likely married in 1925 to a lady named Beatrice M Batten: the marriage register states that the 1925 marriage was between John H Clements and Beatrice, however the 1939 Register states that the couple are John Ellery and Beatrice.  I will have to obtain the wedding certificate to try and sort this matter out.

[Pete Gilbert]

So we know who sold the medals?  If not, I'll approach Bonhams and try to get the records.

 

Rgds

 

pete

[charlie962]

2 hours ago, Pete Gilbert said:

So we know who sold the medals?  If not, I'll approach Bonhams and try to get the records.

Bonhams will not tell you the name of  a buyer. Sometimes they will pass on to the buyer, if they still have a record, a message from you but then it is up to the buyer as to whether or not he responds. All auction houses are the same.

 

Charlie

[Pete Gilbert]

Ah, okay.  I will enquire anyway.  

 

I've just had a long chat with my dad and it turns out that his father knew John Henry and was aware that he had won some medals during WWI apart from just the normal three, but he never went into details about what he did, or where exactly he won them.  Pretty much the same as my grandad (Arthur Gilbert) who was a Cpl/Sgt in the 2nd Devons and wounded twice: once by gas and once by rifle bullet.

 

It seems pretty certain now that John Henry Clements (b: 1896, Morice Town, Plymouth) was the recipient of the MM in service with the RA and bar from service with the RE.  

 

Thankyou for all of your help.

 

Rgds

 

Pete

[charlie962]

3 hours ago, Pete Gilbert said:

Hi Charlie

 

John Henry Clements was certainly born in 1896: the 1939 register shows that he was born in late 1896, and the 1911 census also reflects this.  His slightly younger sister, Mary Emma (b 1897) was my paternal grandmother and it is from her that the picture has passed down through my father and thence to me. 

 

I understand the John Henry Clements (24 June 1895) mentioned above was actually John ELLERY Clements, who was born on that day in 1895.

 

The John Henry I am aware of died in 1971.  It is possible that He married Emily Stoneman in 1920 and had two children, but none of my few remaining family know anything of them, so it could indeed not be the correct John Clements.  There is another John Clements in the 1939 Register, who likely married in 1925 to a lady named Beatrice M Batten: the marriage register states that the 1925 marriage was between John H Clements and Beatrice, however the 1939 Register states that the couple are John Ellery and Beatrice.  I will have to obtain the wedding certificate to try and sort this matter out.

pete, I think there is some confusion here.

 

There's a John Henry Clements born 26/12/1896 (or 97 or 98 ?) Belfast Co Antrim who married 1920 to Emily F Stoneman and they are on the the 1939 Register(b 1896) for Knollys Terrace Plymouth. He is shown as an Asphalter, Invalided RN. His Naval Service record is available on Findmypast and confirms his birth date, his wartime service in the Navy etc, under three numbers- SS117814,SS117524 and J30917.(b 1896,1897,1898 depending which record!). 

 

There's a John Ellery Clements born 24/6/1895 Stoke Damerel living at Warleigh Avenue Plymouth in 1939 with his wife Beatrice M. He died 22/1/1984 and death register confirms birth date. There is a marriage Q2 1925 Plymouth for John H Clements and Beatrice M Batten.

 

There's a John Henry Clements in the 1911 Census for 56 Monument Street, born Devonport 1896+/- 1yr. This is your Gt uncle, I believe; (courtesy findmypast)

The National School Register has a John Henry Clements of 56 Monument Street, but b 24/6/1895

I

 

I think you are saying that the School Register is wrong and has crossed over two birth dates ?

 

There is a John Clements death registered Q3 1971 Plymouth who was born 19/10/1896. I suspect you need to see his death cert to see if there are any more clues. Otherwise he may be nothing to do with this story ! Perhaps it gives name of a surviving child or widow. I haven't seen a suitable birth register for 19/10/1896, have you ?

 

What is very odd is the cross-over twice between John E and John H (once on School Register 1909 and once on marriage register 1925)

 

Charlie

 

Edited 20 October , 2019 by charlie962

[charlie962]

48 minutes ago, Pete Gilbert said:

It seems pretty certain now that John Henry Clements (b: 1896, Morice Town, Plymouth) was the recipient of the MM in service with the RA and bar from service with the RE.  

Yes, that's good. I couldn't see any press clippings about his medal winning which suprised me. Local boy win's MM and Bar would normally attract an entry. Have you tried contacting Plymouth Library/Archives (I don't know how they are structured) ?

 

Charlie

[Pete Gilbert]

Hi Charlie

 

It is very complicated and the lack of a direct birth record suggests that he was born whilst his father was abroad with the RN.  His mother was born in Ireland, as was his elder brother Michael.

 

The John Henry C. who died in 1971 (and who I have registered in my family tree (Gilbert Family of Plymouth) I am certain was born at the end of 1896.  Besides, the John Ellery Clements and the NI-born John Henry Clements, there is an additional candidate John Clements in the 1939 Register: he was born on 19 Oct 1896 and living in Bideford, Devon.  This John is recorded as being a widower.  It is possible that he married a woman called Violet Hedgeland in 1933, who died during child berth in 1935.  I might get this marriage certificate as well, in the hope it will reveal the father's name.

 

I cannot find any other suitable John Clements born during Oct 1896.

 

Rgds

Pete

[charlie962]

14 hours ago, Pete Gilbert said:

John Clements in the 1939 Register: he was born on 19 Oct 1896 and living in Bideford, Devon.

I suspect that is John Clements of Burscott, Clovelly, Bideford. Originally attested ASC T4039671 29/12/14, discharged 10/4/15 unlikely to become efficient soldier aged 19y192days (ie born end of Oct 1896 ?) Subsequently re-enlisted with Devons 20817 and discharged wounds 18/2/18.  Looking at 39 Register this same John is at Burscott but DoB given, as you said, 19/10/96.

 

So not your John Henry.

 

Charlie

 

 

[charlie962]

Given that John Henry Clements won his bar to his MM as a sapper 312469, Royal Engineers, I wonder if expert @Terry_Reeves  has anything about him ? See post 4 above for MIC and LG refs.

 

Charlie

Edited 21 October , 2019 by charlie962

[Terry_Reeves]

I can't help much but he was  a member of the RE Signal Service (indicated by his brassard) and at a guess he was with a RA signal sub-section when he was transferred to the RE in 1917.

 

TR

Edited 21 October , 2019 by Terry_Reeves