Battle of Arras 1917

[Guest Simon Bull]

One of lifes great mysteries is why Arras has been so neglected for so long.

I agree. This is all the more so when one considers what a compact and accessible battlefield it is.

It cries out for attention because of the rate that the battlefield is vanishing under the ever expanding expansion of Arras itself.

[KONDOA]

Arras was overshadowed by events at Ypres later in 1917. Historically this should not have been the case but due to the significance of this later offensive on mainly public perceptions that has been the case since.

Roop

[armourersergeant]

I know there are some copies knocking around on Abebooks but some may wish to know that a new print is due out in November. It is a paperback edition. Amazon have it at £8.83. I have no connection to Amazon other than i spend aload of money with them

regards

Arm

[towisuk]

I also have a problem with the battle of Arras, a friends great uncle was killed fighting with the 15th battalion Durham light Infantry on May 3rd 1917.

As far as I can make out they were involved with VII core at the capture of Fresnoy. Looking at the map which covers the area the only Fresnoy which I can find seems miles to the east of the Arras battlefield.

Am I missing something and barking up the wrong tree??

Any help with this research would be much appreciated chums.

Tom

[Stebie9173]

Fresnoy was at the extent of the British and Canadian advance near Vimy:

I'll check later to see if I have anything on the 15th DLI.

Steve.

[Malcolm]

Are you sure it was FRESNOY not FRESNES?

Aye

Malcolm

[Stebie9173]

Probably Fresnoy, Malcolm.

Referred to here:

http://www.westernfront.co.uk/thegreatwar/...eline/arras.htm

and on the right date, too.

Steve.

[Malcolm]

Agreed. It is a good map - I've copied it!

Aye

Malcolm

[towisuk]

I'm very grateful for all the help I can get on this one lads.

many thanks

Name is mentioned in all the info I have is Fresnoy which when brought up on Autoroute shows one well to the west of Arras

Thanks to the map Stebie9173 posted this makes more sense.

I looked at the DLI site on the net but very few details are obtainable about the 15th div's actions in the Arras battle

Tom

[Stebie9173]

I'll check to see if "Cheerful Sacrifice" gives them a mention tonight.

Seems to be a Canadian Army battle according to the WFA article.

Either the Fresnoy battle was on the right edge of the Canadian sector and the left of the British or alternatively I know some of the British units were attached to the Canadian Corps at Vimy Ridge. I'll look later!

Steve.

[griffy]

Armo

Had a quick look in the excellent book by Jonathan Walker- " The Blood Tub General Gough and the Battle of Bullecourt" (Part of the Arras offensive). It has a revealing quote by one Bernard Montgomery concerning Snow's performance on 23rd April, opening day of the second Battle of the Scarpe

"Snow of course was quite useless; he was an old man (59 at the time) and ought to have been sent home long before. He merely told his divisions to get on with it and there was no coordinated artillery plan. In many cases failure is put down to tired troops. My experience is that it takes a lot to really tire the soldier. The more tired he is the more it is neccessary to ensure that he is given a good "kick off". So often this was not done. The real people who were tired were the commanders behind; Corps commanders were getting pretty tired by 1917 and few of them knew what went on at the front. Snow was one of these."

Griffy

[towisuk]

Thanks for your continuing help on this one Steve

Tom

[Stebie9173]

My copy of Cheerful Sacrifice appears to have been packed for my house move. I'll see if it surfaces at the weekend...

Steve.

[armourersergeant]

Armo

Had a quick look in the excellent book by Jonathan Walker- " The Blood Tub General Gough and the Battle of Bullecourt" (Part of the Arras offensive). It has a revealing quote by one Bernard Montgomery concerning Snow's performance on 23rd April, opening day of the second Battle of the Scarpe

"Snow of course was quite useless; he was an old man (59 at the time) and ought to have been sent home long before. He merely told his divisions to get on with it and there was no coordinated artillery plan. In many cases failure is put down to tired troops. My experience is that it takes a lot to really tire the soldier. The more tired he is the more it is neccessary to ensure that he is given a good "kick off". So often this was not done. The real people who were tired were the commanders behind; Corps commanders were getting pretty tired by 1917 and few of them knew what went on at the front. Snow was one of these."

Griffy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Griffy,

Thanks for that quote. I had heard that Monty was not an admirer of Snow and thought he was an old commander without much competence. the quote you show does not seem to be half as bad as i had been expecting to read. it is also a general comment on corps commanders.

thanks again

Arm.

[Petroc]

With reference to a (much) earlier response, check out Captain Dunn's 'War the Infantry Knew', which includes a chapter by Sassoon on his experiences in Tunnel Trench (a draft for his memoirs?) and Dunn's own comments on his battalion's involvement.

Shame tha battle has been hitherto neglected, a deadly, brutal engagement worthy of re-appraisal; just what this forum is about!

And a Saturday night out in modern Arras is a highly recommended end to a day tramping the battlefields! (just avoid a beer called 'Chi'ti')

[Stebie9173]

Finally found Cheerful Sacrifice:

The 15th DLI in 21st Division were in action on 3rd May 1917 with VII Corps but WAY south of Fresnoy, in the line just South of Fontaine (East of Croisiles on the above map).

Unfortunately, not much more detail. The book has a fair bit on the neighbouring 18th Division (to the north) whose assault battalions (the 7th Bedfordshire and 12th Middlesex) ended up being forced back to their starting points. It seems the attack in the south was generally easily repulsed.

At least you can look at the right part of the battle now,

Steve.

[towisuk]

Many thanks for your help Steve I wasn't getting any further forward with my search, this points me in the right direction anyway.

Cheers

Tom

[Cnock]

Hello,

Pic of trenches in front of Arras in 1917.

Not an inviting spot....

Original picture taken by unknown German Flieger Abteilung.

Regards,

Cnock

[Guest Helen South]

Arras 1917

My other post seems to have dissapeared into cyberspace - or is this forum moderated?

Anyway, I'm really pleased to have discovered so much conversation about Arras, and these wonderful maps and photos.

If anyone with 'The Cheerful Sacrifice' or other resources on Arras is reading, I'd be most grateful if you'd have a look for mention of 2nd Lt Douglas Cutbush (then acting captain, I think made full captain posthumously?) who was awarded M.C. - KIA April 10 1917. Middlesex Regt.

Any general mention of the Middlesex regiment at Arras would be of interest. Cutbush was with the 5th, who'd been sent home, and stayed behind attached to the 5th, as far as I can gather so far.

best regards

Helen

[Stebie9173]

Yes, the forum is moderated (by wonderful people ), but your post is just likely to have got "lost in space".

I have a copy of Cheerful Sacrifice at home. (My great uncle died of wounds at Arras on 14-4-17, probably from wounds on the 9th just south of the railway line). I'll have a look later if no-one else picks up the gauntlet (It's just out in paperback by the way. Well worth having).

Do you have his MC citation by the way?

London Gazette 3-3-1917

2nd Lt. Douglas Cutbush, Midd'x R., Spec. Res.

For conspicuous gallantry in action. He displayed great courage and ability in reorganising his company and in consolidating the position under very heavy fire. He set a fine example to his men.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...&selHonourType=

London Gazette 12-7-1917

Midd'x R.—2nd Lt. D. Cutbush, M.C., Spec. Res. (killed in action), to be acting Capt. 21st Feb. to 10th Apr. 1917 inclusive.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...&selHonourType=

London Gazette 7-6-1915

The undermentioned Cadets and ex-Cadets of the Officers Training Corps to be Second Lieutenants (on probation). Dated 7th June, 1915: —

They are to attend the School of Instruction at Norwich, commencing 11th June, 1915.

Douglas Cutbush, 5th Battalion, Middlesex Regiment.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...&selHonourType=

Apologies if you already found this information,

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Helen,

No mention specifically of Douglas Cutbush or indeed even the 4th Middlesex, but a few mentions of 37th Division (4th Middlesex were in 63rd Brigade of 37th Division)

9th April 1917

The 37th Division along with the 1/1 Northamptonshire Yeomanry, and the Divisional Cyclist Battalion, were given the task of "leapfrogging" the 15th & 12th Divisions to seize the line between Guemappe and Roeux, next to the River Scarpe, with the mounted troops securing the road and railway bridges.

The 12th Divisional History states:

"The 37th Division in accordance with its role to push through the 35th Infantry Brigade when the Brown Line was captured, had advanced in the rear of that brigade's attack and the 63rd Brigade (37th Division) came into the line with the Essex and Berkshire Battalions on the fEuchy Road. No further progress was possible before nightfall, and arrangements were made to destroy the wire by artillery fire and renew the attack on the Wancourt-Feuchy line on the morning of the 10th."

It then notes that 15th Division plus a tank gained a foothold in the Wancourt-Feuchy trench on the 12th Division's left)

Cheerful Sacrifice:

By late afternoon, several companies of the 12th, 15th and 37th Divisions had reached Battery Valley and in position to attack Monchy-le-Preux. The brigades of the 37th Division were delayed in reaching their rendezvous after drifting too far south. With night approaching and the brigade commanders indecisive about whether to proceed the attack was postponed.

10th April 1917.

12th Division History:

"At daybreak, the artillery fire opened up on the Wancourt-Feuchy Trench and [a composite force from 12th Division] crossing the trench in the 15th Division sector passed along the slopes of Orange Hill and caused the Germans who were still holding out in Church Work to evacuate their positions without fighting. By noon 35th Brigade had occupied the position [and then consolidated it]

The 37th Division then passed through to attack Monchy-le-Preux, the 8th Cavalry Brigade waiting close by."

{There is a separate Topic re cavalry actions at Monchy}

Cheerful Sacrifice:

In front of Monchy, the 37th Division had been under fire all day from the newly arrived defenders of the 3rd Bavarian Division. The British artillery pounded the village but the defenders still continued firing at the exposed infantry with rifle and machine guns.

11th April 1917.

37th Division capture Monchy-le-Preux.

I hope this helps,

Steve.

[Guest Helen South]

Hi Steve,

thanks so much for that info. Every little bit helps, and I'm gradually building a picture of the battle. Its taken me a while to understand the formations and what all the different numbers mean. My husband tries to explain them, he knows a lot about military strategy. Fifth battalion, but attached to the fourth.... I'd got muddled in my original post. Your mention of the division helps a lot too.

I'm sorry it took me so long to respond - I'd forgotten to request email notification, and tend to get a bit lost on new forums.

I hadn't seen that last mention about him going to the training school, so that's terrific! I've got a couple of bits from the Gazette.

Another chap on the forum kindly got me some photos of his grave at Level Crossing.

many thanks

Helen

[Guest Chris Earle]

My Fathers Uncle was killed at Arras 8 May, 1917. Corporal William Herbert Earle (37844

12th Bn., Gloucestershire Regiment). Corporal Earle was from Northleach, Gloucestershire.

Looking for any information on the Bristol Regiment, 12th Gloucesters Battallion or anyone who may have served here at the same time.

I have found a brief account of the battle on the night of may 7/8 1917 but not enough to complete my puzzle.

Any help would be appreciietd

[J T Gray]

Just giving this thread a bump in the anniversary year. At least a couple of us still have questions pending from way back...

Adrian

[Norrette]

Interesting to read this thread. Can someone confirm I've read the Long Long Trail correctly. My grandfather Adams (below) was in the 11th South Lancs (pioneer?) and from what I can tell these formed part of the 30th Division.

I think the Long Long Trail is telling me the 30th was engaged in the 1st battle of the Scarpe east of Arras on the 9th April? and according to the fine map earlier in this thread my grandfather would have been only 5 miles from his wife's brother - My uncle Ernest Borrow (below) when he fell on that day at Vimy Ridge?

An interesting co-incidence or common? Have I followed it correctly?

Any advice much appreciated - I know lots about Vimy, little about the British events.