Roger Alvin Poore: what rank??

[Marilyne]

Good Morning all,

 

Taking advantage of the time here during this "mission" to sort out some of the notes taken during readings on the last months when I stumbled on something fishy… and I'm not talking about the grub served here in Peutie…

 

I haven't found a trace of the man on the forum yet, so if this has been discussed earlier, please excuse my zealous researching…

 

OK. so…sorting the notes taken on the Kindl on Hugh WANSEY-BAYLY's "Medical Officer in Khaki - the story of a doctor in the First World War", first published in 1935 under the title "Triple challenge".

After a stint on the Hospital carrier Oxfordshire, the author becomes the first MO to pass from the Navy to the Army and joins the Wiltshire Yeomanry. he writes: The M.O. of the Wiltshire Yeomanry became a casualty through illness, and I was detached to take his place. The Wiltshire Yeomanry was stationed at Tolleshunt D'Arcy, the men being billeted in barns in surrounding farms, and the officers mostly in houses in the village. The Regiment was commanded by Lieutenant-Colonel Poore, who was later killed. the footnote precised that he was killed at in Octobre 1917 by a 150mm shell at Passchendaele. the "find a grave" website says he was talking with two other officers when a shell burst in between them.

So after this, curiosity brought me to the CWGC website to search for this "Lt Col POORE"... problem; on filling name and rank: not found !! Broader search on the name only resulted in finding an entry for a MAJOR Roger Alvin Poore…

could have been just a typo from the author, because the dates (approximatly) coincide.

 

So on to google, which brought me to a picture held by the IWM Under number HU 117074, titled "Lieutenant Colonel Roger Alvin Poore" and showing the man with Lt Col ranks on his sleeves. description: Lieutenant Colonel Roger Alvin Poore DSO. Unit: Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry, attached to 2nd Battalion, Royal Welsh Fusiliers. Death: 26 September 1917 Western Front

by the way am I the only one who thinks he looks exactly like Hugh Fraser, playing Arthur Hastings in the Poirot series???

OK… back to topic…

 

On his sleeves are clearly visible:

 

to add to it all, the plaque in Salisbury Cathedral also mentions his rank as Lt Col … which, the guy being a regiment commander, makes sense, of course.

The "Find a grave" website has two entries for the man: one for major with a picture of the grave in Poelcappele and one with LTC with the plaque in Salisbury Cathedral.

 

so… WHY DOES THE CWGC PUT HIM DOWN AS MAJOR ???

 

Have a nice day,

 

Marilyne

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Fattyowls]

Very thorough as ever Marilyne. I'm sure the experts will be along with answers but I'm wondering if major was his substantive rank and he was acting Lt. Colonel. I'm sure I've read various threads where this has been the case. I vaguely remember that there was discussion of which officer attained the highest temporary rank in relation to his substantive rank. Could be completely wrong of course......

 

Pete.

 

P.S. I'm heartened to see that 'grub' has entered the lexicon of the Belgian armed forces. Pass on my best wishes to bear.

[Cheshire22]

The war diary shows 23/08/1917 Major R A Poore DSO assumed temporary command of the battalion  

 

the war diary for the 26/09/1917 shows his rank as Major

 

 

[DavidOwen]

His service file is listed under Major https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C724764

 

This site has him as Major commanding the 2nd Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers at the time of his death. OC from 23/8/1917 to 26/9/1917 KIA / DoW. link

 

David

[Cheshire22]

From the VC & DSO book

[little bob]

London Gazette  20th January 1915. Major Roger A Poore to be Lieutenant Colonel ( Temporary ) dated 17th December 1914.

 

Bob

[Cheshire22]

27/02/1917 

 

At Suzanne, Training 

Major R A Poore, posted to Batt as 2nd in command

[Marilyne]

10 minutes ago, little bob said:

London Gazette  20th January 1915. Major Roger A Poore to be Lieutenant Colonel ( Temporary ) dated 17th December 1914.

 

Bob

This would explain why he had his picture taken with Lt Col ranks on… undoubtedly while on leave… the pic was taken in London.

 

So still… if he'd been gazetted Lt Col, even temporary, surely he should be buried as such, no??

 

M

[Ron Clifton]

1 hour ago, Marilyne said:

So still… if he'd been gazetted Lt Col, even temporary, surely he should be buried as such, no??

No. His permanent rank was major, and his rank as lt-colonel was only temporary. That said, there may well be cases of other officers in the same circumstances who were buried as lt-colonels.

 

Ron

[Fattyowls]

MM, the best example of temporary ranks getting way ahead of permanent I can think of is Harold Alexander; his entry in Wikipedia has an explanation which I think is correct. Had he been killed as acting brigadier during the chaos of Operation Michael in March 1918 would he have been buried as a major I wonder.

 

17 minutes ago, Ron Clifton said:

That said, there may well be cases of other officers in the same circumstances who were buried as lt-colonels.

 

Interesting idea Ron. I wonder how you would find out?

 

Pete.

[Ron Clifton]

Lt-General Sir Travers Clarke, QMG in France, was a substantive major, I believe. He survived the war, though.

 

As to finding other examples, I suspect that you could only find them by accident.

 

Ron

[Muerrisch]

[Muerrisch]

From my edition of Okd Soldiers Never Die.

Our Colonel[1] went on leave and missed the show too. The name of our Acting-­Colonel was Major Poore[2]. He was not an old regimental officer but had been posted to us some six months before from the Yeo­manry, I believe. He was a very big man, about fifty years of age, slightly deaf, and his favourite expression was "What, what!" He was a very decent officer

 

---

[1] Still Lieutenant-Colonel Garnett.

[2] Major Roger Alvin Poore of the Wiltshire Yeomanry, a solicitor, keen cricketer and a former fencing champion, arrived on February 27th, 1917, as Second-in-Command of the Battalion. He had won the DSO and had been mentioned in des­patches in South Africa. He was popular and somewhat eccentric.

[JimE]

Commonwealth War Graves commemorate HH Kennedy as Lt-Col killed 28-7-18, buried in Raperie British Cemetery

He had been appointed to command the 8th Bn Seaforth Highlanders as a substantive Major, acting Lt- Col on 16 May 1918. (He had previously been in command of other Battalions on three separate occasions, once as Captain, Temporary Major, Acting Lt-Col.) 

The London Gazette list him as MID on 28 December 1918 (p15160) as Major (Acting Lt Col) (Killed in Action), so he was clearly still acting Lt Col when killed but commemorated as Lt-Col

Jim

[Marilyne]

Well I think we've done le tour de la question.

Thanks everybody for providing answers to this question today… we'll all have learned Something, I guess…

 

M.

[Colin W Taylor]

Marilyne,

 

His letters survive at the Liddell Hart centre at Kings College London; they didn't have a photography policy so I was only able to take notes when I looked them up on a previous project - https://kingscollections.org/catalogues/lhcma/collection/p/po65-001.  Might be worth a look if you have a deeper interest in him. Some of his artefacts are in the National Army Museum.

 

Regards

 

Colin

[Muerrisch]

I think that I would have liked Poore.

RIP.

[Marilyne]

18 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

I think that I would have liked Poore.

RIP.

 

Me too… seems to have been a no-nonsense, "just get the job done so we can all have a beer afterwards" kind of guy. I had a commander like that once. Commandant Toussaint. spent his carreer in the mortars. Tell him Something the first time he's say "speak louder, can't hear ye!" and once you said it again, louder, he'd go "don't yell at me, I'm not deaf!"

Originals.

thay don't make them like that anymore.

 

Thanks for the intel, Colin… who knows what I might do and research after I've finished with the ladies on the front.

 

M.