22744 Walter Charles Kiddle - Wiltshire Regiment

[JamesCl]

I was wondering if any information is available for my great uncle, related to a wound he received during the war. I have been told that Walter was wounded in the back\spine - we thought we had photographs of Walter getting treatment but unfortunately we cannot find them. I am unsure if Walter was discharged because of this wound, as I can't find a Silver War Badge record for him.

 

 

 

Here is the medal roll for Walter - did he initially serve in 1st Wilts, then 6th Wilts and finally return to 1st Wilts? Is it possible to figure out the transfer dates, or would only surviving records tell this?

 

 

Sorry if this is off topic... above is Walter's brother, Frederick (my great grandfather) - We know that he served in Ireland towards the end or after the war. Would his records still be held by the MoD, or would these have also been destroyed in the fire?

 

 

 

We also found this photo as well, i'm not sure if it belonged to Walter, or the year it was taken.

[DavidOwen]

There appears to be an ICRC POW record for him https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/5422225/3/2/ note his surname is miss-spelled as Kiddie

[charlie962]

30 minutes ago, JamesCl said:

did he initially serve in 1st Wilts, then 6th Wilts and finally return to 1st Wilts

yes. You will see from the PoW records that he was captured whilst with 1st Wilts (C Company)  on 24 March 1918 at Vaux

 

30 minutes ago, JamesCl said:

I have been told that Walter was wounded

His name appears in the Casualty List of 17/3/17 as wounded. This would suggest actual wounding a month earlier. But it doesn't identify Bn.

Edited 27 December , 2019 by charlie962

[charlie962]

A further ICRC record (R 53068)  shows his repatriation:

 

[charlie962]

44 minutes ago, JamesCl said:

I have been told that Walter was wounded in the back\spine

Via the Western Front Association's Pension Records you will find a card for him showing he recieved a postwar pension; The reason given is this:

 

 

Some good photos, thanks for sharing.

Charlie

Edited 27 December , 2019 by charlie962

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, JamesCl said:

I am unsure if Walter was discharged because of this wound, as I can't find a Silver War Badge record for him.

His Discharge Cert that you copied shows he was Transferred to the Reserve in 13/3/1919, A1 Medical Category.  So no SWB, I presume. However his pension card tells us that his previous wounding came back to haunt him. His Pension dates from 28/10/19.

Edited 27 December , 2019 by charlie962

[JamesCl]

Thank you David and Charlie, none of my family knew that Walter was a POW, i'll share what you've found about him with my family!  

[chaz]

for more help  you could try the regimental museum

https://www.thewardrobe.org.uk/

[FROGSMILE]

The cooks photo relates to the London 'Roughriders', a yeomanry regiment, and the location is their annual Summer Training under canvas at Pond Farm Camp, in the parish of Easterton, 3-miles from Market Lavington, Wiltshire.  The regiment returned there each year. I would date the photo as around 1909-1910, but it might be as late as 1914, as many TF and Yeomanry units were on their annual camp that Summer when the order came for 'embodiment' (mobilisation).

There was a natural water aquifer at that location and the War Office paid for a pumping station to provide fresh water for the horses and men in what was an otherwise barren location.  The old farm was discontinued as a working affair before the war, once it had become compulsorily within the boundary of the military training area, which it still is today.  During a break in live firing training one day I was able to use my land rover to visit the site of the camp and farm during the 1980s (it's inside the artillery impact area - where shells land), there were a few tree stumps, some bricks and stones to mark where the farm buildings once were, and the remains of the shed that had contained the pumping station engines.  The tenant farmer who had previously farmed there was instead paid to operate the engines.  You can see the Roughriders cap badge on one of the cooks, stood centrally in your photo.  You might find the information at the following links interesting:

 

1.  https://marketlavingtonmuseum.wordpress.com/tag/pond-farm-camp/

 

2.  https://marketlavingtonmuseum.wordpress.com/tag/pond-farm/

 

NB.  The cap badge that your GGF, Frederick is wearing appears unusual.  It has the approximate shape of the Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry, but as if made of cloth, or bullion wire.  Do you know if he was DCLI?

 

 

 

Edited 28 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Moonraker]

Thanks to Frogsmile for his info on the site of Pond Farm Camp in the 1980s and for the links to the Market Lavington Museum website.  Either I hadn't seen some of the content or I'd forgotten that I'd done so!

 

A postcard of the original farm c1910 has been listed on eBay for some weeks.

 

Rather than wander off the original topic, I won't offer much  further info about Pond Farm; it was the most remote and bleakest of all the camping-sites on Salisbury Plain. Canadians were camped there through the very wet winter of 1914-15, after which I've seen no evidence that it was used again; at some time or other it became part of the artillery impact area, as Frogsmile says.

 

Moonraker

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

The photo of the cooks is interesting to me as it confirms along with various other photos seen at the links I posted that there was a semi-permanent kitchen hut facility, including a working area with simple overhead cover.  It’s made me curious as to just how many cooks were established for a Yeomanry regiment, or whether they were men taken from other duties within the squadrons.

Edited 28 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[JamesCl]

6 hours ago, chaz said:

for more help  you could try the regimental museum

https://www.thewardrobe.org.uk/

 

Thanks Chaz - I've sent an inquiry about Walter to the museum; if they get back with any new information i'll update the thread.

 

Thank you Frogsmile & Moonraker for the information about the men & location in the postcard, very unusual as to why we have the postcard, but a nice postcard nonetheless.

 

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

NB.  The cap badge that your GGF, Frederick is wearing appears unusual.  It has the approximate shape of the Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry, but as if made of cloth, or bullion wire.  Do you know if he was DCLI?

 

I think Frederick was in the DCLI - he was born in 1900 and served in Ireland; that is all my family know. I believe the 1st DCLI were in Ireland during 1919-1922. If Frederick did serve post-war, would his records have survived? Unfortunately all we have of Frederick is the photo I've posted - no medals of course as he didn't serve 'overseas' 

[Moonraker]

Most, if not all, pre-WWI camping-sites on the Plain had such semi-permanent cooking-shelters, with large numerals on the roofs. I once thought of trying to compile a list to see what sort of sequence there might have been, but that seemed a bit sad; perhaps next Christmas...

 

Here's another one, probably at Windmill Hill, near Ludgershall.

 

Come to think of it, how visible would the roof numbers have been? I did wonder if they might have been a guide to early aviators, but 1907 is a bit TOO early.

 

With apologies to James for my continuing to divert.

 

Moonraker

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, JamesCl said:

 

Thanks Chaz - I've sent an inquiry about Walter to the museum; if they get back with any new information i'll update the thread.

 

Thank you Frogsmile & Moonraker for the information about the men & location in the postcard, very unusual as to why we have the postcard, but a nice postcard nonetheless.

 

 

I think Frederick was in the DCLI - he was born in 1900 and served in Ireland; that is all my family know. I believe the 1st DCLI were in Ireland during 1919-1922. If Frederick did serve post-war, would his records have survived? Unfortunately all we have of Frederick is the photo I've posted - no medals of course as he didn't serve 'overseas' 

 

If Frederick served post war then until recently his records would have been kept at the Army Personnel Centre, at Kentigern House, Glasgow, but I believe that theyve now been passed to the National Archives Office (NAO).  It should be possible to make a search there.

Edited 28 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, Moonraker said:

Most, if not all, pre-WWI camping-sites on the Plain had such semi-permanent cooking-shelters, with large numerals on the roofs. I once thought of trying to compile a list to see what sort of sequence there might have been, but that seemed a bit sad; perhaps next Christmas...

 

Here's another one, probably at Windmill Hill, near Ludgershall.

 

Come to think of it, how visible would the roof numbers have been? I did wonder if they might have been a guide to early aviators, but 1907 is a bit TOO early.

 

With apologies to James for my continuing to divert.

 

Moonraker

 

That's interesting Moonraker and gives a better view of the design.  They seem to have been constructed in such a way that the unit's established field cookers could be parked at one end and then used under cover when there was foul weather.  I think the numbering would be visible at ground level once you were a few yards away due to the sloping wriggly tin roof.  My understanding was that each of these camps had to be capable of accommodating one or two brigades and each unit would have been allocated a numbered cookhouse.

Edited 28 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[JamesCl]

Reviving this thread in hopes that I can get some clarification of Walter Kiddle's pension record; i've read through the articles on the WFA, but i'm still confused with some things...  fold3 link is here

 

Am I correct that Walter was recorded as being 80% disabled in 1920 - being given a conditional gratuity until 1921?

 

I also see that the file has been annotated all the way up until 1930. Did Walter's pension continue beyond this point? In the 1939 Register he is simple marked down as 'incapacitated' suggesting that he hadn't recovered from his disability.  

[ss002d6252]

4 minutes ago, JamesCl said:

 

Am I correct that Walter was recorded as being 80% disabled in 1920 - being given a conditional gratuity until 1921?

Yes. It was always conditional until they determined that the disability was settled enough for a final pension to be paid but in this case they only updated the ledger for a year - it is clear that his pension continued past this but the physical updating of the cards tends to tail off from 1921 ish.

 

Quote

I also see that the file has been annotated all the way up until 1930. Did Walter's pension continue beyond this point? In the 1939 Register he is simple marked down as 'incapacitated' suggesting that he hadn't recovered from his disability.  

Quite possibly. The surviving records are far from complete in their recording of the pension details.

 

Craig

[JamesCl]

Thanks Craig