German Army Regiments

[Roughneck46]

The Imperial German Army regiments usually had two numeral designations, an empire (Prussian?) numeral and also a kingdom/principality/state numeral.  For example, the Infantry Regiment 121 (3rd Wurttemberg) was raised or home-stationed in Ludwigsburg.  That much I know.  However, there was apparently also a Reserve Infantry Regiment 121.  Were "reserve" regiments raised from the same state, city, locale as the regular formation with the same numeral?  In other words, were the IR 121 and the RIR 121 both from Wurttemberg?

[AOK4]

In this case, yes.

(and there was Landwehr Infanterie Regiment 121 as well, also from Wurttemberg)

 

Jan

[GreyC]

7 hours ago, Roughneck46 said:

an empire (Prussian?) numeral and also a kingdom/principality/state numeral. 

Sometimes the number was designated to a region, too, as in 1st, 2nd Thüringisches e.g. On the other hand, Bavarian regiments only had one number.

GreyC

Edited 31 December , 2019 by GreyC

[Roughneck46]

7 hours ago, AOK4 said:

In this case, yes.

(and there was Landwehr Infanterie Regiment 121 as well, also from Wurttemberg)

 

Jan

Thank you.  That is helpful.  Is there a source that lists the reserve regiments?  I'm also researching Reserve Infantry Regiment 111.  IR 111 was from Rastatt, in Baden.

[AOK4]

The series "Handbuch der Verbände und Truppen des deutschen Heeres 1914-1918" is essential for anyone into German army units.

 

Jan

[Roughneck46]

Thank you.

[GreyC]

If you don´t want to spend too much money try

http://genwiki.genealogy.net/Militär/Formationsgeschichte/Deutschland/Alte_Armee/Regimenter

for a start. But of course, the books are great.

GreyC

[Roughneck46]

I have purchased a couple of reference books on the German Army of WW1.  But I still have not been able to find a definitive answer to the question: Were the Reserve Infantry Regiments based on the same locality as the front-line regiment with the same number?  For example, if the 5th Royal Bavarian Infantry Regiment was based in Bamburg, would a 5th Bavarian Reserve Regiment also come from Bamburg?

[AOK4]

2 hours ago, Roughneck46 said:

I have purchased a couple of reference books on the German Army of WW1.  But I still have not been able to find a definitive answer to the question: Were the Reserve Infantry Regiments based on the same locality as the front-line regiment with the same number?  For example, if the 5th Royal Bavarian Infantry Regiment was based in Bamburg, would a 5th Bavarian Reserve Regiment also come from Bamburg?

Not necessarily. It depended from which Ersatz Battalions the reserve units were created. In some cases active and reserve (and sometimes landwehr as well) were from the same area, in others they weren't.

[Roughneck46]

Thank you, AOK4.  I guess I'll have to research them on a case-by-case basis.

[FionaBam]

On 03/01/2022 at 02:51, Roughneck46 said:

have purchased a couple of reference books on the German Army of WW1. 

Hi.

I am trying to locate the position of the 3rd Bavarian Reserve Division in August 1917.

This map does not show them though mentions them in the Enemy Disposition notes on the map.

Could you recommend a book that might provide their location?

Other information I have states they were opposite the Allies east of Bethune where a  cousin of mine was killed by a sniper in August 1917. That would be just to the south  on the map attached below 

Seems odd that a reserve division was on the front line

Is that what happened with the  German army?

Thank you 

Fiona

@KizmeRD

copywright to Collins 2013 

[AOK4]

4 hours ago, FionaBam said:

Hi.

I am trying to locate the position of the 3rd Bavarian Reserve Division in August 1917.

This map does not show them though mentions them in the Enemy Disposition notes on the map.

Could you recommend a book that might provide their location?

Other information I have states they were opposite the Allies east of Bethune where a  cousin of mine was killed by a sniper in August 1917. That would be just to the south  on the map attached below 

Seems odd that a reserve division was on the front line

Is that what happened with the  German army?

Thank you 

Fiona

@KizmeRD

copywright to Collins 2013 

 

Hello,

There was no 3rd Bavarian Reserve Division and the map doesn't mention it either. It only mentions the 3rd Bavarian Infantry Division, which was thought to be in reserve. The different regimental histories of the division should mention the exact whereabouts.

I checked and found that the 3rd Bavarian Infantry Division was in Lorraine since mid June 1917 and stayed there until early October 1917.

The German army had Infantry Divisions, Reserve Divisions, Ersatz Divisions, Landwehr Divisions (and still some others). The names were usually related to when the unit was raised and what kind of units it was made up of. During the war, the value and composition could change.

Jan

[FionaBam]

@AOK4

Hello Jan

Thank you so much for trying to answer my inaccurate question. That's very helpful and good to know .

I was confusing Division with Regiment and will repeat advice from @KizmeRD

I should have said-  the 1st Bavarian Reserve Division, to which the 3rd Bavarian Reserve Regiment was a component part.

I have a map from the same book showing where the  3rd Bavarian Reserve Inf Regiment were in Oct 1917. It's too late for my research about my cousin but I'll keep looking .

Would you have an idea of where to look for the Sniper records of the 3rd Bav Reserve Inf Regiment? I mean the lists they kept of the number of  Officers and other ranks killed ( as  confirmed by an Observer) as well as what time of day it was and the location

Thank you .

Cheers

Fiona 

From : " Mapping the First World War "by Peter Chasseaud

copyright  Collins 2013

[AOK4]

6 hours ago, FionaBam said:

@AOK4

Hello Jan

Thank you so much for trying to answer my inaccurate question. That's very helpful and good to know .

I was confusing Division with Regiment and will repeat advice from @KizmeRD

I should have said-  the 1st Bavarian Reserve Division, to which the 3rd Bavarian Reserve Regiment was a component part.

I have a map from the same book showing where the  3rd Bavarian Reserve Inf Regiment were in Oct 1917. It's too late for my research about my cousin but I'll keep looking .

Would you have an idea of where to look for the Sniper records of the 3rd Bav Reserve Inf Regiment? I mean the lists they kept of the number of  Officers and other ranks killed ( as  confirmed by an Observer) as well as what time of day it was and the location

Thank you .

Cheers

Fiona 

From : " Mapping the First World War "by Peter Chasseaud

copyright  Collins 2013

 

Hello,

The unit doesn't have a published regimental history, but the archives are all available in Munich. The map gives indeed the position of BRIR 3 in October 1917. I doubt that you will find what you are looking for though.

Anyway, it's not because someone was shot that he was shot by a sniper, and the shot could have come from anywhere...

Jan

[FionaBam]

2 hours ago, AOK4 said:

Hello,

The unit doesn't have a published regimental history, but the archives are all available in Munich. The map gives indeed the position of BRIR 3 in October 1917. I doubt that you will find what you are looking for though.

Anyway, it's not because someone was shot that he was shot by a sniper, and the shot could have come from anywhere...

Jan

Subsequent releases will include the remainder of the Bavarian Army combat arms including:

• Infantry Reserves (Infanterie-Ersatztruppenteile)
• Departments and Units in the Homeland (Dienstellen und Truppenteile in der Heimat)
• Bavarian Reichswehr (Bayerische Reichswehr)
• People’s Guard and Volunteer Corps (Volkswehr- und Freiwilligen-Verbände)

...... 

Hi Jan

Thank you . So is a Regimental History the equivalent of the " War Diary  " that the British army kept ? I mean the documents published by N.A. at Kew in their WO 95 series?

Above is copied from Ancestry. Co uk  website  As  you probably know Ancestry offer their database of German personnel to those with an Ancestry subscription. 

Do you think any of those planned future releases listed above could be of any help to me regards lists of Sniper kills in BRIR in August 1917?

I take your point . My father did a small collage centred on a newspaper clipping which reads " Does it matter who shot you ?".

Well yes it does matter .And that official Regimental  document that existed ( if no longer available) would/ could have told me if it was a BRIR sniper and a confirmed kill , and the location and time . All of which matters to me.

Thank you 

Cheers

Fiona 

[charlie2]

The Regimental histories are books published after the war based on the War Diaries and veterans recollections, they are not the same as the WO95 War Diaries. The German equivalent of a War Diary is a Kriegstagebuch (abbreviated to KTB). The KTB for the b.1. RIR is probably in the Munich archives.

29 minutes ago, FionaBam said:

Do you think any of those planned future releases listed above could be of any help to me regards lists of Sniper kills in BRIR in August 1917?

No, they are for post war units and training establishments that never left the home land.

Charlie

Edited 3 February by charlie2

[FionaBam]

50 minutes ago, charlie2 said:

The KTB for the b.1. RIR is probably in the Munich archives.

Hi Charlie

Thank you! 

Shame Munich is so far away from me in Kent and also that I dont speak German .

I shall not hold out hope for Ancestry delivering either .  good to know that.

Cheers

Fiona 

Edit But never say never eh!

Edited 3 February by FionaBam
Add P.S.

[AOK4]

1 hour ago, FionaBam said:

Hi Charlie

Thank you! 

Shame Munich is so far away from me in Kent and also that I dont speak German .

I shall not hold out hope for Ancestry delivering either .  good to know that.

Cheers

Fiona 

Edit But never say never eh!

Ancestry only has the Kriegsstammrollen etc (the personnel files) of the Bavarian units online, none of the other archives. (And for those, there aren't even detailed online inventories).

Jan

[FionaBam]

6 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

for those, there aren't even detailed online inventories).

Jan

Thanks Jan.

This is surprising.  Is there not the interest in researching WW1 History in Germany compared to say in Britain where there is quite considerable interest I would say.?

Fiona 

 

[KizmeRD]

As someone who lives here in Germany, I’d have to say that the level of interest in WW1 is indeed low as far as the general public is concerned. Quite understandable really.

MB

[FionaBam]

I see. Thank you. But still puzzled.

If I were German I would be very interested to know

1  . Why Germany declared war and went ahead for 4 years 

2. What happened to any of my German  ancestors who had fought in the war.

Of course I dont know sitting here in Kent being British born and bred what  the effects of 110 years of political  cultural and emotional influences /  factors would have been on me had  I been German born and bred.

I think : Without knowledge it is easy to make a mistake / repeat someone else's mistake/ endorse a mistake . 

[johntaylor]

Hi Fiona,

I agree with MB's assessment, and was also slightly surprised to find so little interest in WWI in Germany. This was even the case during the centenary years when there was enormous media coverage in the UK, Australia etc. My German friends explained it by saying that at school they're so overwhelmed by learning about WW2, which was even more catastrophic for Germany in many ways, that there's no emotional 'bandwidth' left for WWI. Another put it more simply: for Germans, the First World War is 'vorbei' (or 'over').

Regarding your original question, the German Kriegsakten (or war records) that survive are highly detailed, but I've never seen anything like a sniper's record showing the number of kills.

All the best, John

 

 

[KizmeRD]

Fiona, try and see it from a German perspective.
- Would you want to dwell on WW1 if this was the legacy of losing?

1. Widespread hunger and impoverishment 

2. Political instability and economic upheaval

3. Loss of territory and population, war guilt and (substantial) repatriation obligations

4. Hyper-inflation, unemployment and erosion of savings

5. Rise of extreme nationalism, antisemitism and anti-communism

6. WW2

MB

[FionaBam]

1 hour ago, johntaylor said:

there's no emotional 'bandwidth' left for

Hi John

Thank you . Yes it must be very hard to hear what they have to hear about WW2. And it must obliterate WW1 for the same reasons  . 

1 hour ago, johntaylor said:

never seen anything like a sniper's record showing the number of kills.

That's very helpful to know. Got filtered out of the records as superfluous or..? Anyway it saves me worrying about getting to Munich archives or searching for source material on the Internet. A certain airline with initials of E and J are listing return mid week flights in March for c. 75£. Tempting eh. Premier Inn Munich is ..well, ouch !

Cheers

Fiona 

[FionaBam]

58 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

the legacy of losing?

Hi Kizme

That's a very helpful summary of the " outcomes " ( horrid word) for Germany and in turn,  in No 6,  for all countries and people worldwide .

But - all the more reason to be curious about WW1. 6 reasons in fact plus wondering how your ancestors felt taking part in WW1 , and why they had to serve and for many , die in WW1.

1 hour ago, KizmeRD said:

Would you want to dwell on

No I wouldn't. Maybe it's a post traumatic stress related reaction / self preservation - block the memory and it cannot hurt you. But the brain finds it nonetheless.

Hmm.. psychologists stuff of which I am not an  exponent 

Interesting PhD for a German student and I suppose it has been done and dusted.

Cheers

Fiona