German Army Regiments

[AOK4]

Hello,

People who are interested in the (military) history in/of Germany, are often regarded as at least half Nazis by a lot of people. That doesn't help research either.

And to be honest, even most of the so called experts (that includes people working in the military archives) in Germany have no clue about the German Army...

Jan

[FionaBam]

On 03/02/2024 at 18:15, AOK4 said:

That doesn't help research either.

Oh dear. That's awful. I mean you could be half -Nazi but not necessarily so by any means

By that same token any Brit, like me,  interested in WW1 is a supporter of the British Empire and Colonial system.edit - which  I could be but not necessarily so by any means 

On 03/02/2024 at 18:15, AOK4 said:

most of the so called experts

Thats very frustrating. 

@AOK4 have edited to  clarify the general  point I was trying to make and also because you may have taken this personally . it was not meant to be taken like that . Cheers

Fiona 

Edited 4 February by FionaBam
To clarify my point.

[KizmeRD]

Returning to the question concerning sniper’s records, all ‘Abschusskommandos’ a.k.a. ‘Zielfernrohrschützen’ a.k.a. ‘Scharfschützen’  (German snipers) recorded their shootings in the ‘Abschussbuch’ which contained information regarding time, location, distance, ammunition used, target identification and outcome - they had to do this in order to be credited with a confirmed (observed) kill.
I don’t know whether any of these documents survive in the Archives, but I somehow doubt it.

MB

[FionaBam]

40 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

the ‘Abschussbuch

Thank you Kiźme. Was this a separate book? Sounds like it.

If any weeding out  of war records was being done it would be a good candidate for destruction post-war . A grim record especially  where it recorded payment to snipers  for successful kills.

I haven't seen the equivalent in British War Diaries but statistics were kept .

Found these  2 references  to a " sniping or observation post "  (pg 194)  and " a special sniper's book " (   pg 80 ) kept by the 38th Welsh Division

Pics below - copyright Pen & Sword 2014. 

Fiona 

Edited 3 February by FionaBam
Duplicate photo

[AOK4]

12 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

Returning to the question concerning sniper’s records, all ‘Abschusskommandos’ a.k.a. ‘Zielfernrohrschützen’ a.k.a. ‘Scharfschützen’  (German snipers) recorded their shootings in the ‘Abschussbuch’ which contained information regarding time, location, distance, ammunition used, target identification and outcome - they had to do this in order to be credited with a confirmed (observed) kill.
I don’t know whether any of these documents survive in the Archives, but I somehow doubt it.

MB

Hello,

Where did you get this information?

The only thing I ever found, was that three rifles with telescopic sights were issued to each infantry company.

Jan

[KizmeRD]

I didn’t do the research myself, but found the information online here…

https://irontime.substack.com/p/a-dirty-duty-well-performed-german

Rob Shäfer’s website

MB

[FionaBam]

Thank you Kizme. Looks good. Is there a lot of information taken from original German source material?

Weighing up the option of a subscription....

The quotation on the website front page is very illuminating. I had wondered if a snipers role was easier than a regular soldiers role though if the sniper was up a tree somewhere it would be isolating in an assault on their trenches. My penny worth. 

Fiona 

[KizmeRD]

I don’t believe that a sniper’s roll was any easier than a basic infantryman, in fact it was a lot more demanding and dangerous (because of the response it would inevitably trigger).

Due to the effects of artillery fire, there weren’t many trees in vicinity of most front lines (certainly so as the war progressed), however, I have found evidence of German snipers in 1914 advancing ahead of an attack (protected by shields) in order to tie-down enemy fire (see below)…

Schober Leonhard reservist of the 2nd company 12th RIR, ducal hunter from Scharling/Miesbach in peacetime.
During the attack of the 2nd Company of the 12th RIR on a French trench near Ecurie near Arras on November 26, 1914, shields were carried, behind which, with some degree of cover, snipers followed, then infantry. Reservist Schober is a volunteer sniper and contributed significantly to holding down the enemy with his calm, well-aimed fire. Due to the wounding of a shield bearer who lost his shield, the infantrymen following behind were completely uncovered, but Schober and a comrade quickly stormed forward, shooting several Frenchmen and thereby helping to advance the attack.
Awarded Golden Bavarian Military Merit Medal

Rather than just remaining in their own forward trench lines, German snipers were also known to venture out into no-mans-land at night to set an advantageous (camouflaged) firing position.

MB

Edited 4 February by KizmeRD

[AOK4]

1 hour ago, KizmeRD said:

I didn’t do the research myself, but found the information online here…

https://irontime.substack.com/p/a-dirty-duty-well-performed-german

Rob Shäfer’s website

MB

Thanks for the link! Very interesting indeed.

Jan

[FionaBam]

2 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

fact it was a lot more demanding and dangerous (because of the response it would inevitably trigger).

Thank you Kizme. A highly effective kind of commando troupe .

Of course -no trees left. Thanks .And trees as camouflage  came with risks depending on the light as an illustration in  Major Kesketh-Pritchsrd's book demonstrates .pic attached.

" Sniping in France " . Copyright Pen and Sword 2014.

Perhaps it would still be true to say though that the German sniper , at the start of hostilities and until some later point in the war, had an advantage in  that the Allies had not matched their own ( that is, the Germans') level of  training , equipment and deployment regards snipers .

Fiona 

Edited 4 February by FionaBam
My English!

[KizmeRD]

27 minutes ago, FionaBam said:

Perhaps it would still be true to say though that the German sniper , at the start of hostilities and until some later point in the war, had an advantage in  that the Allies had not matched their own level of  training , equipment and deployment regards snipers .

Yes, although the German army had the advantage in optical scopes (quality), their ‘snipers’ weren’t formally trained until relatively late in the war. German sharp-shooters tended to have existing (pre-war) shooting skills, acquired from being a sport hunter and member of one of the numerous civilian ‘JAEGER’ Rifle Associations. The British (Hesketh-Prichard) were first to establish a dedicated sniper school to train marksmen in special weapons, field craft, concealment and tactics. 
 

MB

[FionaBam]

32 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

tended to have existing (pre-war) shooting skills, acquired from being a sport hunter and member of one of the numerous civilian ‘JAEGER’ Rifle

Great summary Thank you Kizme.

Interesting how the British class system put the Army and most sadly the men at a disadvantage regards sharp shooting :

"In Britain, hunting was an exclusive and expensive sport and very much the preserve of the upper classes.

In Germany, with its 32 million acres of forest (in 1913), forestry and hunting were an industry of major importance. Not only were there enormous numbers of state employed foresters and hunters required to sustain this industry, but private licensed hunting was common in all levels of society. "

My emphasis. From and

Copyright to Rob Shaffer

https://irontime.substack.com/p/a-dirty-duty-well-performed-german

Luckily the British Army had Hesketh-Pritchard .

Fiona 

[FionaBam]

5 hours ago, AOK4 said:

Thanks for the link! Very interesting indeed.

@KizmeRD  I second that!