Proper Shoulder Tiles - Cuffed Rank Tunic - Middlesex Regiment (Duke of Cambridge's Own) 2nd Lieutenant

[ATLWW1]

I am the new owner of this very sturdy yet service worn - Middlesex Regiment (Duke of Cambridge's Own) 2nd Lieutenant’s Officer's Cuff Title Khaki Tunic - Pre WW1 & WW1 Medal Ribbons, The Tunic came with a very nice Sam Browne with 1917 Dated Webley Holster and Sword Frog. Handsome kit and a beautiful representative example - though sadly not named or ID'ed in any way.

 

!) The should straps (epaulets) have 2 holes on each where a shoulder title was once worn. I would like to add back two correct period titles/ranks to tunic - as its not named and is for display.

**What would be proper for this tunic and regiment - considering the ribbon bars and rank - etc?

 

2) Also I am checking on the ribbon bars and the left sleeve - two metal gold stripes.

Is this correct for his ribbons?

Seems like the coronation (1911) would fit with the Boer War metal and WW1.metal.

Pre WW1 Natal Rebellion South Africa, WW1 1914 /1915 indicating that the Officer was part of the BEF, and 1911 Coronation / Delhi Durbar

 

Left sleeve metal stripes - Are these overseas stripes? - I rarely see he metal stripes pinned on - I understand this was common for Officers - so that these and other badges could be removed for cleaning, etc.

 

Rather new to WW1 British gear - a little more familiar with WW2/RAF.

Any help would be wonderful!
 

[GWF1967]

26 minutes ago, ATLWW1 said:

Left sleeve metal stripes - Are these overseas stripes? 

 

 

 

 

Very nice find.

The metal strips left sleeve show he was wounded twice. The criteria for receiving a wound stripe was to appear in a WO Official Casualty List.

 Any chance of a photo of the epaulets?

Edited 7 March , 2020 by GWF1967

[ATLWW1]

Thank you GWF1967 - I thought left sleeve might be wound stripes - overseas right sleeve - I usually think of the blue or red cloth for overseas - but was not sure if it was common for officers to have Metal or perhaps none at all (even if they did serve outside the UK during the war) - looking at my period photos and internet samples - it seems the Officers tunics and ranking badges could very quite a bit - I understand most were private purchase.

[ATLWW1]

The first Ribbon on the Bar - Is that a Distinguished Service Order Ribbon? - not a Boer War ribbon perhaps - I'm just going off of Google searches and photos of ribbon bars.

 

[GWF1967]

17 minutes ago, ATLWW1 said:

The first Ribbon on the Bar - Is that a Distinguished Service Order Ribbon? - not a Boer War ribbon perhaps - I'm just going off of Google searches and photos of ribbon bars.

 

DSO looks a good bet. 

 The holes in the epaulets; are the perhaps for rank pips rather than shoulder titles?

 

[FROGSMILE]

Only a very few regiments officers wore metal shoulder titles on SD, certainly not the Middlesex Regiment.  Rank stars seem more likely, although it’s uncommon to wear rank on cuffs and shoulder at the same time, apart from RN officers of the RND.

Edited 7 March , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Grovetown]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Only a very few regiments officers wore metal shoulder titles on SD, certainly not the Middlesex Regiment.  Rank stars seem more likely, although it’s uncommon to wear rank on cuffs and shoulder at the same time, apart from RN officers of the RND.

 

I would say few close to none STs on Service Dress officialy, yet there is a theory (mine) that they were worn in the front line with the collar up and closed in 'wind' up fashion.

 

I had a Warwicks jacket so arranged, without collar badges, although it's such a light colour it could be a cold weather KD alternative.

 

It was not unknown on Khaki Drill, at least according to Steve Chambers whose word I'd take on all things Gallipoli. Shown below.

Agreed that it was uncommon for shoulder rank and cuff to be worn simultaneously, but not unheard of.

 

Below is also an old (identified) MGC tunic of mine featuring both, and I had no doubt that both sets of rank were contemporary to each other.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

 

 

 

 

Edited 7 March , 2020 by Grovetown
Duplicated images.

[FROGSMILE]

Shoulder titles on officers KD had long been regulation and goes way back to India and other Colonial garrisons.  The only regiments that I know to sometimes have worn STs on officers SD routinely are the KRRC and RB (regulars - and even then not universal - note officer in trench cap), it seems to have been something that just a few Rifles regiments did, largely because collar badges were not worn.  It was carried on in the more recent RGJ I seem to recall.  

 

I too think that rank on both cuffs and shoulder straps is the more likely scenario in this case.  Your theory is interesting, but I don't think it would have been widespread.  That's a very fine looking MGC SD jacket that you have.

 

Edited 7 March , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Grovetown]

19 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Shoulder titles on officers KD had long been regulation and goes way back to India and other Colonial garrisons. 

 

That's interesting as they're not often seen in wartime photos (I mean MEF, EEF etc; not India as I don't look to there in this context); and I've not known them on any wartime jackets.

 

19 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Your theory is interesting, but I don't think it would have been widespread.  

 

Not widespread, if at all - I was clutching at straws at the time to rationalise the titles being on the jacket at all.

 

19 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

That's a very fine looking MGC SD jacket that you have.

 

That and the Warks both long gone.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

 

[ATLWW1]

GROVETOWN, FROGSMILE, and GWF1967 - Sincere thank you all the way around. These photos are brilliant - very helpful. Here is photo of on of the epaulets - both have the same original holes - this tunic - though very solid - had a hard life - cuff ends frayed (and partially repaired with a very old whip stitch, lining shows sweat staining and heavy armpit wear, right sleeve cuff rank and piping 100% correct for the tunic and never added or removed I feel - post war. Left Cuff Rank patch is 100% correct and matching the Right Patch - even in the exact ware patterns on the Rank - BUT - the Rank patch obviously came off at one time in the past and was reattached long ago but maybe not during the war (later). All buttons but two front are the same maker. The other two are correct regiment and period but one has a rather sloppy black cotton thread done to hold it in place. Remnants of the original dirty-tan heavy cotton thread are evident. The Sam Brown was a single cross strap - then had another period cross strap added - darker in color - with the wear patterns on the tunic for the straps and belt I am pretty sure this rig (double strap) has been with the tunic most of its life. Both have the same patina and really came to me - untouched (still lots of dust, no polishing, somewhat dried leather - wear matches belt) - and the Holster has certainly been with the belt for a very long time - also the holster shows heavy usage from a Webley - wear patterns - and the wear pattern on the belt fits to the holster. Though - not being named - I am not concered of 100% untouched mint condition - I like the history of an item - and believe a service worn uniform should have extensive wear consistent with its usage.

The shoulder PIPS (certainly - and not shoulder Titles - my mistake really in wording - sorry for confusion on that) would just make a nice addition to fill the holes - and they can be added and removed with no cutting,stitching etc. They were Cotter Pin PIPS. 

I am looking for a dark patina standard 2nd LT set (many available at very reasonable prices) but size is a concern.

Perhaps you help here - the distance between the holes is exactly 20mm each side.

 

I believe the Lugs would be this distance but the Dealer/Seller listings are in diagonal total length and side-to-side total length.

 

The sets seem to vary quit a bit - from 17mm diagonal up to 29mm diagonal.

 

***With 20mm lug to lug - what would the full diagonal length be?

***What thread is commonly used for period sympathetic button attachment? 

[Andrew Upton]

On ‎07‎/‎03‎/‎2020 at 10:52, Grovetown said:

...Agreed that it was uncommon for shoulder rank and cuff to be worn simultaneously, but not unheard of. Below is also an old (identified) MGC tunic of mine featuring both, and I had no doubt that both sets of rank were contemporary to each other...

 

They do crop up together in period photos as well sometimes, it seems to have been more commonly done amongst Canadian officers. Usually it seems as if rank was worn on the shoulder as well the corresponding cloth rank on the cuffs would be omitted, using only the relevant braid instead, eg: 

 

 

 

Edited 9 March , 2020 by Andrew Upton

[Grovetown]

1 hour ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

 

 

Interesting photo. He appears to be of Japanese or, perhaps, Inuit extraction, so not your typical 'Canuck'. He also doesn't appear, beyond the shoulder rank, to have any other insignia at all - no cap badge, no collars. Can't make out the buttons. Unusual.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

Edited 9 March , 2020 by Grovetown

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

They do crop up together in period photos as well sometimes, it seems to have been more commonly done amongst Canadian officers. Usually it seems as if rank was worn on the shoulder as well the corresponding cloth rank on the cuffs would be omitted, using only the relevant braid instead, eg: 

 

 

Very interesting images Andrew, I've seen one or two before, but not of such super quality.  It seems a clever method for a new officer kitting out and unsure what his unit policy may, or may not be, to cover both options in the make up of his jacket when placing an order with a military outtfitter, perhaps the tailor encouraged such hedging of bets.  The lowermost officer's jacket is also notable in the shallow depth of the bellows ('cargo') pockets on the skirt.  The original 02 SD had shallower skirts anyway, but the later pattern tended to follow the Indian Army influenced preference for a longer skirt that sat better when mounted, but also provided more capacity.

Edited 9 March , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Andrew Upton]

11 minutes ago, Grovetown said:

 

Interesting photo. He appears to be of Japanese or, perhaps, Inuit extraction, so not your typical 'Canuck'. He also doesn't appear, beyond the shoulder rank, to have any other insignia at all - no cap badge, no collars. Can't make out the buttons. Unusual.

 

I believe the buttons are the generic leather football type, so I suspect he may have been a member of a pseudo-military unit or similar. Alas I was more concerned with naming the file on my computer with details of the oddities within than where I got it from!

[FROGSMILE]

16 hours ago, ATLWW1 said:

The shoulder PIPS (certainly - and not shoulder Titles - my mistake really in wording - sorry for confusion on that) would just make a nice addition to fill the holes - and they can be added and removed with no cutting,stitching etc. They were Cotter Pin PIPS. 

I am looking for a dark patina standard 2nd LT set (many available at very reasonable prices) but size is a concern.

Perhaps you help here - the distance between the holes is exactly 20mm each side.

 

I believe the Lugs would be this distance but the Dealer/Seller listings are in diagonal total length and side-to-side total length.

 

The sets seem to vary quit a bit - from 17mm diagonal up to 29mm diagonal.

 

***With 20mm lug to lug - what would the full diagonal length be?

***What thread is commonly used for period sympathetic button attachment? 

 

 

The rank pips (Bath Stars) were 1.25" (around 25mm) wide.  In the early 1930s the Middlesex Regiment changed the pattern of star to be the so-called Eversleigh type (first adopted by the South Wales Borderers in 1890), which were larger, more square, and generally fitted with screw posts rather than cotter pin loops.

 

N.B.  The image below shows a rather diminutive Captain's greatcoat shoulder straps.  The 'dark patina' you mention is known officially as, officers service dress (OSD) bronze.

Edited 9 March , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

On 08/03/2020 at 09:40, Grovetown said:

 

That's interesting as they're not often seen in wartime photos (I mean MEF, EEF etc; not India as I don't look to there in this context); and I've not known them on any wartime jackets.

 

 

I don't think that they were especially common outside of India during WW1, as the exigencies of war certainly had an effect on what was worn.  Their evolution seems to have started in the late 1890s in India and carried on until WW1.  As always they were not universal, in the sense that with the regimental system, not all chose to use them, although a majority did.  As you alluded to with your comment about a closed neck SD jacket, they were undoubtedly linked with the absence of collar badges on the earlier, closed neck patterns of KD and seemed to carry on from there, with some regiments continuing to use them even when the stepped collar with shirt and tie gained favour.  Later on, between the world wars, when open necked, safari style jackets without collar and tie were adopted, they became even more common in lieu of collar badges as a unit identifier.  Ray Westlake, in his book on shoulder titles, has attempted to list against each regimental entry those whose officers wore shoulder titles since before WW1.  In general they were of the same configuration as other ranks, but with shorter letters to facilitate their being placed alongside rank stars.  I enclose two, relevant images of officer insignia.

Edited 9 March , 2020 by FROGSMILE