Scottish Horse Identification

[Terry Kramer]

Hello. I wonder can anyone perhaps identify the regiment and time period of the man in the photo. It is postcard size with usual old postcard style to back and was found with other old photos from our great aunt's family in Melrose Scotland. She had 6 brothers, 2 of whom died in The Great War. One was 20 and one was 35. We are so proud of them. We feel the man must be one of the 6 brothers but not very good at research. To us it looks like the Scottish Horse (or less likely the Lovat Scouts). From what I have read there were a few mounted brigades across Scotland that came together as the Scottish Horse. There is mention of the 1st Scottish Yeomanry being based in Northumberland in 1914 so that might explain why the photograph was taken by someone from Middlesbrough. The hat or something very like it is frequently shown in photographs of the Boer war (1899-1902) though the photograph may have been taken years later. 

 

Any help in identifying the regiment and timescale will be much appreciated. Thank you.

[ss002d6252]

Names etc of the possible contenders would assist.
 

Craig

[Terry Kramer]

Oh right, thanks. The family was Gordon. Adam was killed in 1916 with the Cameron Highlanders and George in 1917 with the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. John fought with the KOSB in the near east and survived. The other 3 brothers were James, William and Alexander who would have been 26, 24 and 21 when WW1 broke out. I really do hope that helps. 

[Waddell]

The uniform looks to be Scottish Horse. The shape of the collar badge looks right, the tunic cuffs and the hat all match.

 

The note below is from Barlow and Smith's book on the Scottish Horse mentions the hat being superseded by the Atholl Bonnet by about 1909-10, Which would date this to before that period. However, I would not rule it out being taken early in the war, particularly as you mentioned they were moved south to Northumberland when they were mobilized. Some soldiers just seemed to hold on to their old kit and their slouch hat with the black cock's feathers was very distinctive.

 

Some Scottish horse soldiers were merged into 10th Battalion Cameron highlanders.

 

Scott

 

 

 

 

[Terry Kramer]

10 hours ago, Waddell said:

The uniform looks to be Scottish Horse. The shape of the collar badge looks right, the tunic cuffs and the hat all match.

 

The note below is from Barlow and Smith's book on the Scottish Horse mentions the hat being superseded by the Atholl Bonnet by about 1909-10, Which would date this to before that period. However, I would not rule it out being taken early in the war, particularly as you mentioned they were moved south to Northumberland when they were mobilized. Some soldiers just seemed to hold on to their old kit and their slouch hat with the black cock's feathers was very distinctive.

 

Some Scottish horse soldiers were merged into 10th Battalion Cameron highlanders.

 

Scott

 

 

 

 

Thank you very much for your kind reply and very interesting. I will certainly use that to aid our research. Any other information gratefully received.

[Marilyne]

Nothing to do with identification, but the horse looks pretty amazing… note the neck muscles … well proportionned and looks like it was well trained.

Kudos also to the rider: very good position… he put the pelham rein on the upper ring, thus reducing the pressure on the bit. 

 

M.

 

 

[Terry Kramer]

9 minutes ago, Marilyne said:

Nothing to do with identification, but the horse looks pretty amazing… note the neck muscles … well proportionned and looks like it was well trained.

Kudos also to the rider: very good position… he put the pelham rein on the upper ring, thus reducing the pressure on the bit. 

 

M.

 

 

Well you know, I am no horseman but we always thought the horse looked extremely well cared for. This fuels the thought with us that it could be one of our Great Uncles, most likely James. His father at the time was coachman at The George and Abbotsford Hotel in Melrose and had also cared for horses at the Carterhaugh Estate at Selkirk so you would expect that his son would pick up good information on horse management. Anyhow we will continue oue research and thank you for your interest.

[Guest]

Here's a picture of my grandfather (age ~20) George Sutherland wearing the same uniform. He was with the Lovat Scouts and this picture was taken soon before their 1915 deployment to the Dardanelles (Gallipoli). The Lovat Scouts were formed during the Boer War, but my grandfather was clearly too young to have been a veteran of that war. It's interesting that he was essentially wearing the older-style uniform (especially the hat) despite being a new soldier. Perhaps there was a mish-mash of hats/uniforms as they scaled up their forces for WWI?

[FROGSMILE]

The cuff with its three buttons had become a special feature of the Lovat Scouts and Scottish Horse, but the collar badges of the first horseman definitely look like Scottish Horse.

[kenmorrison]

Some detail on Adam and George at the bottom of page 2 here:

http://warmemscot.s4.bizhat.com/warmemscot-ftopic686-0-asc-15.html

 

There is a service record for Alexander on Ancestry as Gunner 126544 101 Company, Royal Garrison Artillery, enlisted in 11/1916.

 

Hope this helps.

Ken

[INW]

Terry

 

My grandfather James McConnachie Moir, from the Haugh of Elchies Farm near Aberlour, was in the  Elgin Squadron of the Territorial Scottish Horse Regiment from about 1912. Every summer the regiment would go to Blair Atoll for a training camp and we have a good collection of photos taken at the camp. The photographers Burnett and Simpson visited and took the photographs. This photo is from our family collection but we do not know who the solider is. The tent, tree and hill are the same and the cart is hidden behind the horse but the shafts can just be seen over its spine. Men would have come from all over northern Scotland with their horses by train. One of the other photos by these photographers is dated 1914.  I have ringed the camp ground  in the Google map below.

Virtually all the other photos have the men in the black bonnets with the red and white check band, I wonder whether this cap was shared for the photographs. There is one of these caps in the museum at Blair Atholl. So I think your man was in the Scottish Horse before WW1 but perhaps he did not serve with them during the war.

 

This is my grandfather James McConnachie Moir he survived the full duration of the war despite being wounded twice, possibly three times, and quite a bit of shrapnel remained in his body. Many Scottish Horse men by then 13th Battalion Black Watch (Scottish Horse) fell in the last battles of November 1918. After the first war he joined the Manchester Police and survived the Manchester Blitz but died in his 50s. I have just noticed this picture only references 'Burnett' rather than 'Burnett and Simpson' and so it is probably from a different year. 

 

Thanks for posting the photo, it is the first I have seen that matches our collection, apart from ones in the Scottish Horse Regimental Museum at Dunkeld and from the Butler Family (relatives of the Duke of Atholl) Collection at Trinity College, Cambridge.   

 

INW

 

 

 

[Terry Kramer]

On 12/11/2020 at 12:16, kenmorrison said:

Some detail on Adam and George at the bottom of page 2 here:

http://warmemscot.s4.bizhat.com/warmemscot-ftopic686-0-asc-15.html

 

There is a service record for Alexander on Ancestry as Gunner 126544 101 Company, Royal Garrison Artillery, enlisted in 11/1916.

 

Hope this helps.

Ken

 

Thank you Ken. Just noticed this as I do not check the Forum regularly. Thank you so much for your information.

[Terry Kramer]

On 11/11/2020 at 17:51, davethecanuck said:

Here's a picture of my grandfather (age ~20) George Sutherland wearing the same uniform. He was with the Lovat Scouts and this picture was taken soon before their 1915 deployment to the Dardanelles (Gallipoli). The Lovat Scouts were formed during the Boer War, but my grandfather was clearly too young to have been a veteran of that war. It's interesting that he was essentially wearing the older-style uniform (especially the hat) despite being a new soldier. Perhaps there was a mish-mash of hats/uniforms as they scaled up their forces for WWI?

 

Thank you Dave. Just noticed this as I do not check the Forum regularly. Thank you so much for your information. Very interesting indeed.

[Tawhiri]

Comparing the two photographs posted by Terry Kramer and INW, one might suspect that the photo posted by INW was taken before the one posted by Terry. The large rock that is visible directly below the horse's muzzle in INW's photograph has clearly been removed by the time the photo posted by Terry was taken. You can just see the indentation where it would have been behind the horse's hock in Terry's photo.

[INW]

The loss of the large stone is something I had not noticed. The cart horse is in both shots, next to the cart, and behind the white horse's bridle there seems to be a bell tent. I do think the camera position has been moved. Please see the attached photo which is dated 1914. I indicate the most likely large tent and camera position. The red V contains the tent and the point of the V is my estimate of the camera position.  Perhaps they put the tents up in the same arrangement each year.

 

 

 

INW

 

[Terry Kramer]

21 hours ago, Tawhiri said:

Comparing the two photographs posted by Terry Kramer and INW, one might suspect that the photo posted by INW was taken before the one posted by Terry. The large rock that is visible directly below the horse's muzzle in INW's photograph has clearly been removed by the time the photo posted by Terry was taken. You can just see the indentation where it would have been behind the horse's hock in Terry's photo.

Thank you for your comment. I think the large rock is likely hidden behind the horse in my photo due to a change of camera position or movement of the other horse. The placement of the upright cart in both photos also gives a good indicator of the photos probably being taken on the same day. Can I also acknowledge the courage of INW's grandfather, a quality which must have ran throughout the men and women of the country at that time.

[Tawhiri]

1 hour ago, Terry Kramer said:

I think the large rock is likely hidden behind the horse in my photo due to a change of camera position or movement of the other horse.

 

In your photo the horse is standing forward of where the horse in INW's photo is standing and the photographer is also standing slightly further to the left. The little ramp that slopes downwards from right to left between the front of the horse and the stone in INW's photo can be seen between the tree and the back of the horse in your photo. The scar in the slope visible to the immediate right of the horse's hock in your photo is where the stone was. I'd say the two photographs were taken at the same camp, but on different days, or possibly at different times on the same day.

Edited 12 April , 2021 by Tawhiri

[INW]

Another unknown Scottish Horse Territorial at  Blair Atoll summer camp between 1911 and 1914. Possibly a bit too tall for his horse.

 

 

Photo signed J H Burnett. Note the large tent and buildings from the south side of the camping ground.

 

INW

 

 

[Terry Kramer]

Very interesting. By the same photographer as well.

[INW]

 

Perthshire Advertiser Wednesday 17 June 1914: From the British Newspaper Archive

 

 

 

Dundee Courier 23rd June 1914: From the British Newspaper Archive

 

 

There are many more newspaper reports from this camp and those of many other territorial regiments throughout the UK.  

 

INW