Ottoman 1887 Mauser

[Rem1858]

Hey all,

 

My first post here.

 

I stumbled on to this 1887 Ottoman Mauser and I've been trying to find out what the arabic/persian (?) scripts mean. I know only that there is year 1307 and serial number. I suppose it is something fairly simple, but any help is appreciated.

Edited 15 June , 2020 by Rem1858

[trajan]

 

 

2 hours ago, Rem1858 said:

Hey all,

 

 

Hi, and welcome to GWF!

 

Our 'resident expert' on Ottoman rifles markings is SS who is off-line right now but he'll give you the full gen!

 

I am in the middle of marking exams, but basically the script incoporates the name of the Mauser factory; the year at the end is indeed 1307; the serial number underneath is 144056. This is all in Ottoman script and numbering. Somewhere I have an explantion for the marks shown in the last photograph, including the big and small 'bikini-tops' (start and finish) as SS once termed them,  but I'll have to search for that, not possible right now . These are all inspections marks added at different stages of checking the various parts and putting the thing togther.  

 

It looks a beauty!

 

Trajan

[Steve1871]

Looks nice, was the stock sanded or just very good shape? And markings on the stock?

Thanjs for posting 

[Rem1858]

Hey,

 

Thanks for the answers.

 

I don't think it is sanded, but probably stripped of previous coatings and re-oiled. It has few crack fixes, but otherwise looks to be in good condition. The barrel has some laquer like finish and I don't know if that is original or not. That much I have been able to find out that reciever in white was how they came from factory. You can correct me if wrong. Also that pin that prevents you from completely unscrewing the takedown screw on the bolt has been taken out and probably not by accident because the threads on the screw are intact. Of course also the cleaning rod (which ottomans had opted for) and bayonet are missing.

 

These rifles even had some limited use in WW1? Even as they were made obsolete in few years by smokeless powder.

 

I will check for stock markings soon.

[Steve1871]

Of the Early , first generation, if you will, of black powder, several were used, at least issued to rear guard/reserve troops

1. the Germans reissued to reserve troops as seen in photos, in the colonies, the German natives under German  command still used the M.71.  M.71 Jaeger and the M.71 Karbine

 

2. I believe a turkey reissued to rear troops guarding the Turkish border with the M.87 (1887) Mauser ( I may be corrected). No books with me

 

3. Serbia had their M.1880 Mauser, Serbia had 3 tiers of reserve troops set by age, going over 50 years old who were issued the M1880, in original,  and converted for 7 mm I believe, 2 variations

 

4. after the Great War, Some country, most believed it was Bulgaria took surplus M1887, which were rebarreled in 8mm steyr barrels set as single shot with crude rear sights, in the 1920’s

 

So the early Mauser family stretched from 1872 to the 1920’s, for half a century. China also bought and used the M.71, no one knows how long, I believe as China kept adopting new rifles, older ones kept being sent back to the more remote regions. A friend of mine had a small collection he got ( auction) 15-20 years ago, these M.71’s were so far gone as a weapon, that some were turned into crutches and other things.

As for your rifle there. REM1858. It looks better than mine. Never had ammo to shoot

[Rem1858]

Thanks for the info.

 

A lot went down with drain with the M.1887 and 9.5x60R Turkish Mauser. Cartridges of the World says it was the most efficient blackpowder cartridge and took a lot of effort from Mauser. And I think Othais said that Sultan or whoever made the deal wanted a clause on the contract that they could switch the M1887's to a newer better model if such comes along during fullfilling the contract. So they did not even make the full amount of 1887's that was agreed.

Edited 15 June , 2020 by Rem1858

[shippingsteel]

The Osmanli script found on the M1887 Turkish Mauser is the standard manufacturer's address describing the Mauser Arms Factory, of Oberndorf am Neckar, Germany. 

 

PS. These were certainly still being used in the GW even as makeshift frontline weapons in sectors of lesser importance to the Ottomans.

 

Recent digs have uncovered fired cases of this ammunition amongst WW1 battlefield locations in Palestine. (see member Assafx threads on this) 

 

Cheers, SS 

Edited 16 June , 2020 by shippingsteel
add PS

[assafx]

 

8 hours ago, Rem1858 said:

Thanks for the info.

 

A lot went down with drain with the M.1887 and 9.5x60R Turkish Mauser. Cartridges of the World says it was the most efficient blackpowder cartridge and took a lot of effort from Mauser. And I think Othais said that Sultan or whoever made the deal wanted a clause on the contract that they could switch the M1887's to a newer better model if such comes along during fullfilling the contract. So they did not even make the full amount of 1887's that was agreed.

Welcome to the GWF,

 

When the Ottoman Empire finalized the deal (they ordered 500,000 rifles), they had a clause that once a newer model will be on the market, Mauser will convert the order to the new gun.

In 1889 Mauser manufactured a new, modern rifle, with smokeless gunpowder 7.65X53mm cartridge, for Belgium.

The Ottomans used the Clause and converted the Manufacturing to the Mauser 1890.

SO in terms of numbers there were about 220,000 M1887 and 280,000 M1890.

 

A British intelligence report, from 1916, mentions that troops in Mesopotamia and Yemen were still using M1887 in 1914.

I don't know what was the state in Gallipoli and if it was used there to replace battlefield losses of the more modern rifles that the Ottomans had.

In terms of Material finds in here (Israel), there aren't many casings that were found (I know of 7) from three different places.

Three from Beersheba not far from the Ottoman lines, one from a place where a retreating Ottoman supply column was captured by the Australian 7th Light horse, and three (one case made by DWM) from a place that i don't think that saw action in WWI and maybe a small troop movement.

In short, this small number of finds and their mixed context, cannot tell for sure that they were in front line use in the Palestine front in 1917 but can suggest that rear echelon units were using this rifle.

 

Assaf

 

 

Edited 16 June , 2020 by assafx

[Rem1858]

6 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

The Osmanli script found on the M1887 Turkish Mauser is the standard manufacturer's address describing the Mauser Arms Factory, of Oberndorf am Neckar, Germany. 

 

PS. These were certainly still being used in the GW even as makeshift frontline weapons in sectors of lesser importance to the Ottomans.

 

Recent digs have uncovered fired cases of this ammunition amongst WW1 battlefield locations in Palestine. (see member Assafx threads on this) 

 

Cheers, SS 

 

Hey,

 

Thank you for the answer! That was about what I expected it to say, but great to have it confirmed. Of course always hoping that it would say something epic.

[Rem1858]

4 hours ago, assafx said:

 

Welcome to the GWF,

 

When the Ottoman Empire finalized the deal (they ordered 500,000 rifles), they had a clause that once a newer model will be on the market, Mauser will convert the order to the new gun.

In 1889 Mauser manufactured a new, modern rifle, with smokeless gunpowder 7.65X53mm cartridge, for Belgium.

The Ottomans used the Clause and converted the Manufacturing to the Mauser 1890.

SO in terms of numbers there were about 220,000 M1887 and 280,000 M1890.

 

A British intelligence report, from 1916, mentions that troops in Mesopotamia and Yemen were still using M1887 in 1914.

I don't know what was the state in Gallipoli and if it was used there to replace battlefield losses of the more modern rifles that the Ottomans had.

In terms of Material finds in here (Israel), there aren't many casings that were found (I know of 7) from three different places.

Three from Beersheba not far from the Ottoman lines, one from a place where a retreating Ottoman supply column was captured by the Australian 7th Light horse, and three (one case made by DWM) from a place that i don't think that saw action in WWI and maybe a small troop movement.

In short, this small number of finds and their mixed context, cannot tell for sure that they were in front line use in the Palestine front in 1917 but can suggest that rear echelon units were using this rifle.

 

Assaf

 

 

Hey and thank you Assaf. Great info!

[Rem1858]

Anything on those big and small bikini tops , star, crescent etc.? Proof marks, acceptance marks or something else?

Edited 17 June , 2020 by Rem1858

[Steve1871]

ShippingSteel would be the expert there

[Rem1858]

Actually managed to find it from the web. 😮

 

Top to bottom

 

From https://gewehr98.wordpress.com/2015/11/17/mauser-oberndorfs-turkish-rifle-contracts-and-their-markings/

 

• Inspection after barrel is Bored
• Proof after Barrel Pressure test
• After Rifling and Chamber completed
• After Front and rear sights mounted
• After System with Barrel Proof
• Final inspection

 

And from https://silahreport.com/2020/04/19/stars-and-rifles-part-1-ottoman-hexagram-proof-marks/

 

Glatte Lauf fertig (barrel boring is complete)
– Gewehrbeschuß (barrel pressure test)
– Fertiger Lauf mit Patronenlager(barrel rifled and chamber completed)
– Lauf mit Visier und Korn (front and rear sight mounted)
– Systembeschuß (test fired)
– Systeminspektion (system inspection)

Edited 17 June , 2020 by Rem1858

[Rem1858]

On 15/06/2020 at 16:52, Steve1871 said:

Looks nice, was the stock sanded or just very good shape? And markings on the stock?

Thanjs for posting 

Haven't found any markings outside on the stock. Did remove butt plate, nothing there either, but on the plate outside proof mark and 16 and on the inside M and 5.

[Marilyne]

Need to show this to Boyfriend.... he's going to be so jealous!!! 

 

M.

[Steve1871]

Great info there Rem1858, thanks

[dman]

Germany also used Mauser 1887   There were some 25,000 placed in storage after Turkey used the conversion clause to switch to newer models

First was the 1890 , a copy of Belgian 1889 sans barrel jacket, then the 1893 a copy of the Spanish 1893

 

The leftover 1887 were used by Wurttemberg Landsturm for rear echelon duties - guarding prisoners, supplies, strategic points like railroads , bridges, tunnels , etc

 

[trajan]

On 17/06/2020 at 22:24, Rem1858 said:

Actually managed to find it from the web. 😮

 

Top to bottom

 

From https://gewehr98.wordpress.com/2015/11/17/mauser-oberndorfs-turkish-rifle-contracts-and-their-markings/

 

• Inspection after barrel is Bored
• Proof after Barrel Pressure test
• After Rifling and Chamber completed
• After Front and rear sights mounted
• After System with Barrel Proof
• Final inspection

 

And from https://silahreport.com/2020/04/19/stars-and-rifles-part-1-ottoman-hexagram-proof-marks/

 

Glatte Lauf fertig (barrel boring is complete)
– Gewehrbeschuß (barrel pressure test)
– Fertiger Lauf mit Patronenlager(barrel rifled and chamber completed)
– Lauf mit Visier und Korn (front and rear sight mounted)
– Systembeschuß (test fired)
– Systeminspektion (system inspection)

 

EXCELLENT finds! The bottom set, the blue-prints, was what I referred to in post no. 2 - I knew I had them on file somewhere but not being a rifle man I had lost track of where...

[Rem1858]

On 19/06/2020 at 16:16, dman said:

Germany also used Mauser 1887   There were some 25,000 placed in storage after Turkey used the conversion clause to switch to newer models

First was the 1890 , a copy of Belgian 1889 sans barrel jacket, then the 1893 a copy of the Spanish 1893

 

The leftover 1887 were used by Wurttemberg Landsturm for rear echelon duties - guarding prisoners, supplies, strategic points like railroads , bridges, tunnels , etc

 

Thank you for the post. 😀

[Steve1871]

Hey Rem1858

where did you read that? Wurttemburg use leftovers ( WW1)? Back inside Germany during the war? I know they used the M.71 in rear areas, even rear areas inside France. Just never read they used the M.87

I collect anything M.71 family related and am very curious 

[Rem1858]

15 minutes ago, Steve1871 said:

Hey Rem1858

where did you read that? Wurttemburg use leftovers ( WW1)? Back inside Germany during the war? I know they used the M.71 in rear areas, even rear areas inside France. Just never read they used the M.87

I collect anything M.71 family related and am very curious 

Hey,

 

That was a quote on dman's post. Maybe He can shed some light on it.

[Steve1871]

Thanks Rem1858

[dman]

Go to YouTube and reference the 1887 Mauser  video by C&RSENAL - its long about a hour .  Goes into detail concerning design and manufacture of the 1887

 

 References for use by Wurttemberg units,    also have seen other references  use of 1887 by rear echelon units  (LANDSTURM)

 

Turkey had ordered 500,000 1887 rifles and 50,000 carbines,  had a conversion clause that required Mauser to fuflil the remainder of the contract with improved models

 

In 1890 after 220,00 rifles had been produced, Turks enforced the conversion clause to require Mauser to use the new Mauser 1890 in smokeless 7.65 caliber , a modification of the Belgian 1889

 

Mauser was left with about 25,00 rifles in varying states of completion - not knowing what to do with them stored the parts.  During WW I were taken out of storage and finished

being issued to Wurttemberg Landsturm units for rear area duties

 

  The 1887 was a 8 shot repeater which used tube magazine in 9.5 mm caliber.  It was the last major black powder rifle

[Rem1858]

In that other article about the M1887 it says that the expert who helped with the translations of the symbols He said that He does not know why Mauser used those symbols. That the symbols do not correlate with symbols used in arabic language. So it seems that Mauser just made up some "random" symbols.

Suprisingly there are still dies made for the caliber with .43 Mauser as parent case.

 

That C&rsenal episode about the M1887 has some awesome information about the rifle and it's history. Highly recommend it to anyone that is interested on the topic. They have also episodes on the other early Mauser models and a ton of other guns.

Edited 21 June , 2020 by Rem1858

[trajan]

Well, the six-pointed star and crescent are used on other Ottoman-made military stuff.